Hello everyone!
After taking some time to consider our architect’s design and adjusting the ground floor to fit our ideas, I would now like to share the floor plan with you. Ideally, construction would start next year, but we are not in a real hurry.
The plans show a second preliminary draft from our architect, including an initial cost estimate. Unfortunately, dimensions are not included yet. The first draft was mainly to illustrate that our dreams cannot be realized within the original budget we had planned.
Development plan/restrictions
Plot size => approx. 450-500 m² (The exact size is not yet fixed as we are receiving the plot as a gift from my parents, and we are still unsure about the future boundaries.)
Slope => slight slope from west to east (approx. 1m (3 feet) over the house’s length)
[I]The house has an almost ideal north/south orientation. The entrance, carport, and driveway are therefore located on the north side.[/I]
- There is no development plan.
Homeowner requirements:
Style, roof type, building type => flat roof with roof terrace
Exterior dimensions => [I]11.80m x 7.2m (39 feet x 24 feet) with a bay window of 4.4m x 1.5m (14 feet x 5 feet) (no specification from us)
[/I]
Basement, floors => basement with a granny flat + 2 full floors + roof terrace
Number of people, age => 2 adults in the main living unit + 2 children expected soon + 1 person in the granny flat
Office: family use or home office? => My wife is a teacher and will regularly do some work at home. I will be working from home up to 4 days a week in the future.
Open or closed architecture => open living/kitchen/dining area
Conservative or modern design => modern design
Open kitchen, kitchen island => open, yes, but no island (if possible, without overhead cabinets)
Number of dining seats => 6-10 people (table 2.4m x 1.0m (8 feet x 3 feet) + 8-10 chairs)
Fireplace => undecided (my wife wants one, I don’t – leaning towards no)
Music/stereo wall => no
Balcony, roof terrace => roof terrace
Garage, carport => 2x carport
Utility garden, greenhouse => no
House design
Planning by:
- our trusted architect.
What do you like in particular?:
- open kitchen, cube on the roof with covered roof terrace, small utility room on the ground floor for washer and dryer
What do you dislike/what needs improvement?:
Basement – the layout needs optimization for a technical room.
Ground floor – should be mirrored west to east completely; we are also concerned that the living room width of 3.5m (11.5 feet) feels narrow and tunnel-shaped. I want the sofa on the north side and the TV on the south side.
Upper floor – 45° walls in the children’s bathroom
Preferred heating technology:
- gas boiler/solar vs. heat pump (air/water or geothermal) – still completely undecided, the floor plan should be finalized first, then heating load will be calculated.
If you had to do without certain features/extensions …
… what could you do without:
for now, the carport and basement finishing as well as expanding the children’s rooms + bathroom since we don’t have children yet. Otherwise, we would like everything included.
… what can’t you do without:
- open living area on the ground floor, granny flat, roof terrace
Since our architect is on vacation until early December, we are currently on a bit of a break, which we have used to reshape the ground floor according to our ideas.
[I][I]
We are now considering extending the longitudinal side by at least 50cm (preferably 1.0m (3 feet)) to increase the living room width from 3.5m (11.5 feet) to 4.0-4.5m (13-15 feet) (we extended the building by 1m (3 feet)).[/I]
We mirrored the plan from west to east to achieve a greater spatial separation between the living room and the granny flat. Additionally, we planned a niche for a side-by-side refrigerator – unfortunately at the expense of the already small utility room.
Sorry there are no measurements included yet, I will provide them as soon as possible. Please ask if you want specific dimensions.
Now to the architect’s cost estimate:
Site development: 7,000€
Surveying: 2,500€
Main house: 285,000€
Carport: 12,000€
Controlled ventilation system: 10,000€ (requested by us)
Sun protection: 7,500€
Ceiling spotlights: 2,000€ (requested by us)
Landscaping: 2,500€
Paved surfaces: 20,000€
Kitchen: 15,000€
Fireplace: 7,000€ (initially requested by us, now uncertain)
Architect fees approx.: 29,000€[/I]
Specialist experts, structural engineering, fire protection, energy saving regulations approx.: 11,000€
Total: 410,500€
The architect’s calculation assumes building costs of 326€/m³ (including VAT) of gross volume.
The living area currently is approx. 156m² (1,680 sq ft) + 38m² (410 sq ft) granny flat + 30m² (320 sq ft) usable space in the basement.
Calculating only on living area, that equates to around 1,470€/m² (137 USD/sq ft).
Including all costs, it comes to 2,110€/m² (197 USD/sq ft).
Does this seem realistic to you?
What do you think about the design? What would you improve?
I look forward to your suggestions!
Best regards, Mathias
After taking some time to consider our architect’s design and adjusting the ground floor to fit our ideas, I would now like to share the floor plan with you. Ideally, construction would start next year, but we are not in a real hurry.
The plans show a second preliminary draft from our architect, including an initial cost estimate. Unfortunately, dimensions are not included yet. The first draft was mainly to illustrate that our dreams cannot be realized within the original budget we had planned.
Development plan/restrictions
Plot size => approx. 450-500 m² (The exact size is not yet fixed as we are receiving the plot as a gift from my parents, and we are still unsure about the future boundaries.)
Slope => slight slope from west to east (approx. 1m (3 feet) over the house’s length)
[I]The house has an almost ideal north/south orientation. The entrance, carport, and driveway are therefore located on the north side.[/I]
- There is no development plan.
Homeowner requirements:
Style, roof type, building type => flat roof with roof terrace
Exterior dimensions => [I]11.80m x 7.2m (39 feet x 24 feet) with a bay window of 4.4m x 1.5m (14 feet x 5 feet) (no specification from us)
[/I]
Basement, floors => basement with a granny flat + 2 full floors + roof terrace
Number of people, age => 2 adults in the main living unit + 2 children expected soon + 1 person in the granny flat
Office: family use or home office? => My wife is a teacher and will regularly do some work at home. I will be working from home up to 4 days a week in the future.
Open or closed architecture => open living/kitchen/dining area
Conservative or modern design => modern design
Open kitchen, kitchen island => open, yes, but no island (if possible, without overhead cabinets)
Number of dining seats => 6-10 people (table 2.4m x 1.0m (8 feet x 3 feet) + 8-10 chairs)
Fireplace => undecided (my wife wants one, I don’t – leaning towards no)
Music/stereo wall => no
Balcony, roof terrace => roof terrace
Garage, carport => 2x carport
Utility garden, greenhouse => no
House design
Planning by:
- our trusted architect.
What do you like in particular?:
- open kitchen, cube on the roof with covered roof terrace, small utility room on the ground floor for washer and dryer
What do you dislike/what needs improvement?:
Basement – the layout needs optimization for a technical room.
Ground floor – should be mirrored west to east completely; we are also concerned that the living room width of 3.5m (11.5 feet) feels narrow and tunnel-shaped. I want the sofa on the north side and the TV on the south side.
Upper floor – 45° walls in the children’s bathroom
Preferred heating technology:
- gas boiler/solar vs. heat pump (air/water or geothermal) – still completely undecided, the floor plan should be finalized first, then heating load will be calculated.
If you had to do without certain features/extensions …
… what could you do without:
for now, the carport and basement finishing as well as expanding the children’s rooms + bathroom since we don’t have children yet. Otherwise, we would like everything included.
… what can’t you do without:
- open living area on the ground floor, granny flat, roof terrace
Since our architect is on vacation until early December, we are currently on a bit of a break, which we have used to reshape the ground floor according to our ideas.
[I][I]
We are now considering extending the longitudinal side by at least 50cm (preferably 1.0m (3 feet)) to increase the living room width from 3.5m (11.5 feet) to 4.0-4.5m (13-15 feet) (we extended the building by 1m (3 feet)).[/I]
We mirrored the plan from west to east to achieve a greater spatial separation between the living room and the granny flat. Additionally, we planned a niche for a side-by-side refrigerator – unfortunately at the expense of the already small utility room.
Sorry there are no measurements included yet, I will provide them as soon as possible. Please ask if you want specific dimensions.
Now to the architect’s cost estimate:
Site development: 7,000€
Surveying: 2,500€
Main house: 285,000€
Carport: 12,000€
Controlled ventilation system: 10,000€ (requested by us)
Sun protection: 7,500€
Ceiling spotlights: 2,000€ (requested by us)
Landscaping: 2,500€
Paved surfaces: 20,000€
Kitchen: 15,000€
Fireplace: 7,000€ (initially requested by us, now uncertain)
Architect fees approx.: 29,000€[/I]
Specialist experts, structural engineering, fire protection, energy saving regulations approx.: 11,000€
Total: 410,500€
The architect’s calculation assumes building costs of 326€/m³ (including VAT) of gross volume.
The living area currently is approx. 156m² (1,680 sq ft) + 38m² (410 sq ft) granny flat + 30m² (320 sq ft) usable space in the basement.
Calculating only on living area, that equates to around 1,470€/m² (137 USD/sq ft).
Including all costs, it comes to 2,110€/m² (197 USD/sq ft).
Does this seem realistic to you?
What do you think about the design? What would you improve?
I look forward to your suggestions!
Best regards, Mathias
I think the ground floor plans need revising ... both versions. Just look at the path from the kitchen to the terrace ... a bit of a slalom. Considering it’s a sloped site, the original drawing shows the terrace on the left, to the west ... so you’d have to go completely through the living room to get to the terrace.
Is there really that much distance from the sofa to the TV?
And why can’t the living room be located above the basement apartment? I don’t understand the reasoning behind the spatial separation.
Regarding the kitchen, the side-by-side refrigerator in the niche probably needs more clearance on the left side from the peninsula ... which I also don’t find ideal here. It will likely just become a storage area, as it isn’t logically integrated into the kitchen workflow.
Basement apartment ... who is supposed to live there? Try furnishing it. The entrance vestibule there feels quite cramped, especially since it doesn’t even leave space for a coat rack.
The children’s bathroom has a tub in front of the window. That makes cleaning the window difficult, and when the kids become teenagers or prefer showers, will they always have to shower in the tub in front of the window?
Is having an office in the attic really practical? Ok, it’s quiet up there, but if there are children, it’s quite far from the main living areas. Or when the mail carrier rings the doorbell three times.
Maybe consider turning the attic into the living room, making it a bit larger, and placing the office—perhaps as two smaller offices—on the ground floor instead. Then you could have a spacious kitchen and dining area on the ground floor.
Is there really that much distance from the sofa to the TV?
And why can’t the living room be located above the basement apartment? I don’t understand the reasoning behind the spatial separation.
Regarding the kitchen, the side-by-side refrigerator in the niche probably needs more clearance on the left side from the peninsula ... which I also don’t find ideal here. It will likely just become a storage area, as it isn’t logically integrated into the kitchen workflow.
Basement apartment ... who is supposed to live there? Try furnishing it. The entrance vestibule there feels quite cramped, especially since it doesn’t even leave space for a coat rack.
The children’s bathroom has a tub in front of the window. That makes cleaning the window difficult, and when the kids become teenagers or prefer showers, will they always have to shower in the tub in front of the window?
Is having an office in the attic really practical? Ok, it’s quiet up there, but if there are children, it’s quite far from the main living areas. Or when the mail carrier rings the doorbell three times.
Maybe consider turning the attic into the living room, making it a bit larger, and placing the office—perhaps as two smaller offices—on the ground floor instead. Then you could have a spacious kitchen and dining area on the ground floor.
Slightly off topic:
I have the impression that lately more architects are trying to persuade willing homebuilders to include a granny flat or secondary unit to offset costs.
You get excited about finally owning your own independent house, and then you end up with the burden of a roommate. In many cases, this unit can’t even accommodate a frail elderly parent. You should ask yourself at what stage in life you’d rent a one-room apartment under a household of four. It might work as a party room or an au pair space, though.
If I were you, I’d run through a typical evening scenario. The teacher is upstairs working, the husband comes up with white wine (red wine leaves stains over two floors), and wants to enjoy a romantic sunset with her. She’s not done yet. He goes back downstairs, she relaxes briefly in the bathroom, then follows him downstairs... Forget about the roof terrace (the sun’s already set and the lawn still needs watering). You promise yourself you’ll actually use the roof terrace more often, only to realize it’s mostly a great spot for plant containers—but then there’s the garden too, which needs care...
When the kids are around, the lawn is the favorite place anyway, and the roof terrace ends up being used by the teenagers for smoking later on...
My point is: you always imagine the roof terrace to be wonderful, but you actually have a much better terrace on the ground floor—because it’s close to the fridge and the utility room, and certainly less drafty than a roof terrace inevitably is.
And here’s a tip: remove the word “guest” from the plans—otherwise you might have trouble with the tax authorities.
Other than that, I think the design is quite okay.
I have the impression that lately more architects are trying to persuade willing homebuilders to include a granny flat or secondary unit to offset costs.
You get excited about finally owning your own independent house, and then you end up with the burden of a roommate. In many cases, this unit can’t even accommodate a frail elderly parent. You should ask yourself at what stage in life you’d rent a one-room apartment under a household of four. It might work as a party room or an au pair space, though.
If I were you, I’d run through a typical evening scenario. The teacher is upstairs working, the husband comes up with white wine (red wine leaves stains over two floors), and wants to enjoy a romantic sunset with her. She’s not done yet. He goes back downstairs, she relaxes briefly in the bathroom, then follows him downstairs... Forget about the roof terrace (the sun’s already set and the lawn still needs watering). You promise yourself you’ll actually use the roof terrace more often, only to realize it’s mostly a great spot for plant containers—but then there’s the garden too, which needs care...
When the kids are around, the lawn is the favorite place anyway, and the roof terrace ends up being used by the teenagers for smoking later on...
My point is: you always imagine the roof terrace to be wonderful, but you actually have a much better terrace on the ground floor—because it’s close to the fridge and the utility room, and certainly less drafty than a roof terrace inevitably is.
And here’s a tip: remove the word “guest” from the plans—otherwise you might have trouble with the tax authorities.
Other than that, I think the design is quite okay.
Thanks first of all for your replies!
- Yes, that’s correct. The way from the kitchen to the terrace would go through the living room. That was also a point for us, but in the end we decided we don’t mind that.
- The distance from sofa to TV is indeed a bit far at 6.40m (21 feet). However, this also allows us to potentially have a projector and screen.
- Regarding the spatial separation: a stranger will be moving into the granny flat. The distance provides privacy for both sides, especially in the evenings.
The kitchen layout from the architect was just an example. Because of the breakfast bar alone, that layout is not an option for us. I’m attaching an older version from us and a 3D image of the current peninsula. My wife would like some kind of bench seating – whether that makes sense or is useful is another question.
If I leave 10cm (4 inches) clearance from the left edge of the fridge niche to the peninsula, that should be enough, right?
The island is actually intended mainly as a surface for placing items, so the main work area isn’t cluttered with daily appliances like the coffee machine, kettle, soda maker, etc. Additionally, it offers extra storage in the base cabinets, which we’ll definitely need since there won’t be any tall cabinets.
But as I said, this is just a first draft. We plan to consult a kitchen planner soon. The main goal was to estimate the size of the future kitchen.
The granny flat definitely needs improvement. With a possible house extension, it could even be turned into a small 2-bedroom apartment. But more on that soon.
Same with the children’s bathroom as with the architect’s kitchen: this was just an initial example and won’t work for us. The bathtub will only be in the master bathroom; the children’s bathroom will have a shower, toilet, and one washbasin. The problem likely will be that the shower will have to go where the bathtub is now, so a window there won’t be possible.
That would make it the only window on the north side, which might be a bit odd...
The main idea behind having the office upstairs is that I work from home. Spending 3-4 days a week there means a lot of time, and I imagine it would be great to be able to work quietly up there. Also, the use of the rooftop terrace would probably change significantly since you could fit a small under-counter fridge in the office and wouldn’t have to go downstairs for every drink. Still, the climb upstairs remains long, but that’s the case with all rooftop terraces.
For us, the advantages of the rooftop terrace clearly outweigh the garden:
Complete privacy from neighbors
Beautiful view over the Inntal valley towards Austria
The architect has proposed covering the area to the left of the staircase, also making it sheltered against wind. (Alternatively: the space left of the stairs could be an office, with a covered seating area on the right side.)
We also want to keep the option open to install a hot tub and possibly even a small outdoor sauna up there.
I’m aware that having both a garden and a rooftop terrace often leads to unrealistic expectations. However, it also depends on how you develop the rooftop terrace.
If it’s just walkable space with some plants around, I agree it won’t get much use.
But if I think about having a hot tub, seating area, fridge, grill, and outdoor shower up there — basically everything you could have downstairs — plus the view and the high level of privacy you can’t fully guarantee in a garden, then I personally don’t have to think twice.
That’s definitely an interesting option, which sounds promising to me. It would come at the expense of the large open space on the ground floor. I’ll see if I can convince my wife, thanks!
We’ll provide those as soon as possible. At the moment, I don’t have access to a scanner.
kbt09 schrieb:
I think the ground floor needs revising ... both versions. Just look at the route from the kitchen to the terrace ... zigzag. Although ... slope location, the original plan shows the terrace on the left side to the west ... so you’d have to go completely through the living room to get to the terrace. Really that much distance from the sofa to the TV? And why can’t the living room be above the granny flat? I don’t understand the spatial separation here.
- Yes, that’s correct. The way from the kitchen to the terrace would go through the living room. That was also a point for us, but in the end we decided we don’t mind that.
- The distance from sofa to TV is indeed a bit far at 6.40m (21 feet). However, this also allows us to potentially have a projector and screen.
- Regarding the spatial separation: a stranger will be moving into the granny flat. The distance provides privacy for both sides, especially in the evenings.
kbt09 schrieb:
Kitchen: the side-by-side fridge in the niche probably needs more clearance on the left side toward the peninsula ... which I don’t think is ideal here either. It will end up as a dumping place since it’s not properly integrated into the kitchen workflow.
The kitchen layout from the architect was just an example. Because of the breakfast bar alone, that layout is not an option for us. I’m attaching an older version from us and a 3D image of the current peninsula. My wife would like some kind of bench seating – whether that makes sense or is useful is another question.
If I leave 10cm (4 inches) clearance from the left edge of the fridge niche to the peninsula, that should be enough, right?
The island is actually intended mainly as a surface for placing items, so the main work area isn’t cluttered with daily appliances like the coffee machine, kettle, soda maker, etc. Additionally, it offers extra storage in the base cabinets, which we’ll definitely need since there won’t be any tall cabinets.
But as I said, this is just a first draft. We plan to consult a kitchen planner soon. The main goal was to estimate the size of the future kitchen.
kbt09 schrieb:
Granny flat ... who is supposed to live there? Try furnishing it. The vestibule area is quite cramped since it doesn’t even have space for a coat rack.
The granny flat definitely needs improvement. With a possible house extension, it could even be turned into a small 2-bedroom apartment. But more on that soon.
kbt09 schrieb:
Children’s bathroom with bathtub in front of the window. Window hard to clean and when the kids become teenagers or start showering, always having to shower in the bathtub in front of the window?
Same with the children’s bathroom as with the architect’s kitchen: this was just an initial example and won’t work for us. The bathtub will only be in the master bathroom; the children’s bathroom will have a shower, toilet, and one washbasin. The problem likely will be that the shower will have to go where the bathtub is now, so a window there won’t be possible.
That would make it the only window on the north side, which might be a bit odd...
kbt09 schrieb:
Is an office in the attic really practical? Sure, it’s quiet, but if there are kids, it’s quite far away. Or if the postman rings three times...
The main idea behind having the office upstairs is that I work from home. Spending 3-4 days a week there means a lot of time, and I imagine it would be great to be able to work quietly up there. Also, the use of the rooftop terrace would probably change significantly since you could fit a small under-counter fridge in the office and wouldn’t have to go downstairs for every drink. Still, the climb upstairs remains long, but that’s the case with all rooftop terraces.
For us, the advantages of the rooftop terrace clearly outweigh the garden:
Complete privacy from neighbors
Beautiful view over the Inntal valley towards Austria
The architect has proposed covering the area to the left of the staircase, also making it sheltered against wind. (Alternatively: the space left of the stairs could be an office, with a covered seating area on the right side.)
We also want to keep the option open to install a hot tub and possibly even a small outdoor sauna up there.
I’m aware that having both a garden and a rooftop terrace often leads to unrealistic expectations. However, it also depends on how you develop the rooftop terrace.
If it’s just walkable space with some plants around, I agree it won’t get much use.
But if I think about having a hot tub, seating area, fridge, grill, and outdoor shower up there — basically everything you could have downstairs — plus the view and the high level of privacy you can’t fully guarantee in a garden, then I personally don’t have to think twice.
kbt09 schrieb:
Maybe consider making the attic the living room, making it a bit larger, and relocating the office – maybe as two smaller offices – to the ground floor. Then create a spacious kitchen/dining area downstairs.
That’s definitely an interesting option, which sounds promising to me. It would come at the expense of the large open space on the ground floor. I’ll see if I can convince my wife, thanks!
BeHaElJa schrieb:
I really don’t like it – it can be much better (especially if individually designed by an architect for you). Can you give us some measurements?
We’ll provide those as soon as possible. At the moment, I don’t have access to a scanner.
ypg schrieb:
A bit off-topic:
I have the feeling that lately architects are increasingly encouraging willing homeowners to include a granny flat (secondary apartment) to help cover costs.
You get the idea in your head to finally own your own independent house, and then you end up with the burden of a housemate. This kind of apartment can’t even accommodate a frail parent. You should really ask yourself at what stage in life you’d rent a one-room apartment under a family of four. It might be okay as a party or au pair room though.The idea of the secondary apartment did not come from our architect but from us. The project is located very centrally in Passau – within a 5-10 minute walk to the university (students), the hospital (young doctors), and several schools (trainee teachers).
My parents have been renting out four small apartments of 20-30cm (8-12 inches) next door for 25 years, and these have only been vacant for about 3-4 months in total during that time.
With a high-quality standard, its own garden area, and in this location, we found rents of around 10€ per square meter (approximately $10 per square foot) achievable without heating costs.
If we can reach the KfW 55 energy standard, it would probably allow for a KfW loan of about €100,000 ($110,000) just for the secondary apartment starting next year.
On top of that, due to the interest-free grace period on the KfW loan, we could pay off a private loan of €50,000 ($55,000) within the first 5-7 years, which we could get interest-free.
What I want to say is:
Over 20 years, the apartment will likely bring rental income of about €80,000 ($88,000), plus the interest relief from the KfW and private loans.
This has to be weighed against the additional costs of building the secondary apartment, but based on the initial calculations, I don’t have to think long about whether it makes financial sense in our area.
The only argument left is bringing a stranger into your home. That’s true.
However, if well thought through, we probably won’t notice much from the tenant and vice versa. Everyone has to decide for themselves whether the financial benefits are more important than having a detached house just for themselves.
ypg schrieb:
Then I’d suggest you imagine your evenings. The teacher is upstairs working, the husband comes up with white wine (red wine might stain over two floors), wanting to watch the sunset romantically with her. She’s not finished yet. He goes back downstairs; she relaxes briefly in the bathroom, then goes down... No chance to use the roof terrace (the sun has set, and the lawn needs watering). You promise yourself to use the roof terrace more often but realize there’s plenty of space for plant containers – but then there’s the garden which requires work...
When children come, the lawn becomes the favorite spot anyway, and later the roof terrace will be used by teenagers for smoking...
What I mean is: everyone imagines the roof terrace so nicely, but you actually have a much better terrace on the ground floor, close to the fridge and the garden room, which certainly isn’t as drafty as a roof terrace usually is.See above – it always depends on what you make of the roof terrace.
But I agree with you that with small children it might well be neglected. However, there is life after toddlers.
My wife was also skeptical at first, but her concerns have eased after I showed her the possibilities.
Since I definitely want the roof terrace, we will probably have to give it a try, hoping that we are among the few who actually use it – no offense intended.
ypg schrieb:
One tip: remove the word “guest” from the plans—otherwise, the tax office might give you trouble.
Otherwise, I think the design is quite okay.Definitely. But the appointment with the tax advisor (also regarding the secondary apartment and its depreciation) is still pending. Thanks!
I definitely don’t want to come across as resistant, hope it doesn’t seem that way. oops:
What do you think about the architect’s cost estimate? Does it look about right?
Thanks! Best regards
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