Hello everyone,
I’m looking for some advice and opinions.
We want to build a single-family house using solid masonry construction, stone on stone, with a basement (waterproof concrete shell), and we already own the plot.
Since we are not professionals, it seemed best to hire a general contractor.
We contacted several and had some designs made, but they were only usable at first glance.
Because we have a very restrictive zoning plan and a tight building envelope, it is especially important that what is allowed is implemented as optimally as possible.
Since a fixed price is important to us, we did not consider hiring an architect initially.
The general contractors apparently always had a draftsman on hand who put the designs on paper.
Besides the usual “drama” from most providers regarding intellectual property rights to the plans, we had one general contractor still in the running.
This contractor was said to build very “efficient and functional,” which from an engineering perspective might be fine, but in terms of appearance, aesthetics, and comfort, it was more like “no, thanks.”
Flexibility during construction is also important to me. I have some materials available that I want to provide to the craftsmen on site, as they are already owned, and I would also like to know exactly what we will get for our money.
I no longer want to hear statements like “It will turn out nice, we’ll take care of it... we build according to standards such as DIN… etc.” I was also tired of repeatedly receiving plans that had been changed by the contractor without informing us or pointing out the changes (for example, a door suddenly became a sliding door, or the ceiling height changed).
When I asked about that, the answers were like: “The current ceiling height is sufficient, he finds a sliding door more visually appealing, blah blah blah.”
A few weeks ago, on a business trip, I saw a house that perfectly matched our ideas. I rang the doorbell and asked if I could take a look at this great house (about the same size as our plan)... I was allowed to... and it almost blew me away. Open, bright, modern, straight lines, almost perfect… so it’s possible after all, but it’s an architect-designed house.
The architect (a close friend of the owners) lives a few houses away and came by immediately. Because I was so enthusiastic, he offered to review our documents (including the building regulations), which I sent right away.
The next day he called and said: “If we like the house that much, we should forget our previous plans completely... (wrong proportions, narrow, cramped, etc.).”
Since the architect lives on the other side of Germany, he unfortunately cannot supervise us. But he adapted the great floor plan from his friend to our house design, so we now have a submission-ready plan based on our wishes, but still no one to build the house.
The architect told us he knows some construction companies that only build the shell but also offer to manage the entire construction phase.
These companies would handle calls for bids and collect offers, organize the processes, supervise, etc.
The respective contracts with the tradespeople would have to be signed by the client (homeowner) directly.
Drawbacks: There is more work for the homeowner because you have to be very clear about your choices (which heating system, brand, model, etc.).
Advantages:
You can choose the companies yourself and have much more personal contact with the tradespeople, and you can make small adjustments directly in consultation during the process, in case something was forgotten in the planning.
Now my questions for you:
1. Do you have experience with this approach? Both positive and negative.
2. How is the risk of meeting deadlines (house completion) handled? Is the completion date fixed by the contract with the construction management?
3. Which trades typically come after the shell construction (house standing with roof covered and windows installed)? Off the top of my head, I thought of:
- Screed installer
- Plasterer (interior and exterior – is that one trade?)
- Electrician
- Heating and plumbing
- Bathroom installer (???)
- Drywall installer
- Tiler/flooring installer
- Fireplace builder
- Painter
- Landscaping
- Garage (prefabricated)
- (Insulation, roller shutters I am not sure where to assign)
Have I forgotten anything, and which trades can or should be combined?
How does warranty work in cases where issues arise in borderline areas and each party blames the other?
4. What are typical costs for construction management? Is it a fixed amount or a percentage of the overall construction cost?
5. How do the costs compare to a general contractor, who understandably needs to make a profit (for which you would have the construction management costs here), but a general contractor with a guaranteed fixed price will also factor in a contingency buffer that you save here.
6. Did I forget anything important?
I know these are a lot of questions and I look forward to your answers.
Best regards
I’m looking for some advice and opinions.
We want to build a single-family house using solid masonry construction, stone on stone, with a basement (waterproof concrete shell), and we already own the plot.
Since we are not professionals, it seemed best to hire a general contractor.
We contacted several and had some designs made, but they were only usable at first glance.
Because we have a very restrictive zoning plan and a tight building envelope, it is especially important that what is allowed is implemented as optimally as possible.
Since a fixed price is important to us, we did not consider hiring an architect initially.
The general contractors apparently always had a draftsman on hand who put the designs on paper.
Besides the usual “drama” from most providers regarding intellectual property rights to the plans, we had one general contractor still in the running.
This contractor was said to build very “efficient and functional,” which from an engineering perspective might be fine, but in terms of appearance, aesthetics, and comfort, it was more like “no, thanks.”
Flexibility during construction is also important to me. I have some materials available that I want to provide to the craftsmen on site, as they are already owned, and I would also like to know exactly what we will get for our money.
I no longer want to hear statements like “It will turn out nice, we’ll take care of it... we build according to standards such as DIN… etc.” I was also tired of repeatedly receiving plans that had been changed by the contractor without informing us or pointing out the changes (for example, a door suddenly became a sliding door, or the ceiling height changed).
When I asked about that, the answers were like: “The current ceiling height is sufficient, he finds a sliding door more visually appealing, blah blah blah.”
A few weeks ago, on a business trip, I saw a house that perfectly matched our ideas. I rang the doorbell and asked if I could take a look at this great house (about the same size as our plan)... I was allowed to... and it almost blew me away. Open, bright, modern, straight lines, almost perfect… so it’s possible after all, but it’s an architect-designed house.
The architect (a close friend of the owners) lives a few houses away and came by immediately. Because I was so enthusiastic, he offered to review our documents (including the building regulations), which I sent right away.
The next day he called and said: “If we like the house that much, we should forget our previous plans completely... (wrong proportions, narrow, cramped, etc.).”
Since the architect lives on the other side of Germany, he unfortunately cannot supervise us. But he adapted the great floor plan from his friend to our house design, so we now have a submission-ready plan based on our wishes, but still no one to build the house.
The architect told us he knows some construction companies that only build the shell but also offer to manage the entire construction phase.
These companies would handle calls for bids and collect offers, organize the processes, supervise, etc.
The respective contracts with the tradespeople would have to be signed by the client (homeowner) directly.
Drawbacks: There is more work for the homeowner because you have to be very clear about your choices (which heating system, brand, model, etc.).
Advantages:
You can choose the companies yourself and have much more personal contact with the tradespeople, and you can make small adjustments directly in consultation during the process, in case something was forgotten in the planning.
Now my questions for you:
1. Do you have experience with this approach? Both positive and negative.
2. How is the risk of meeting deadlines (house completion) handled? Is the completion date fixed by the contract with the construction management?
3. Which trades typically come after the shell construction (house standing with roof covered and windows installed)? Off the top of my head, I thought of:
- Screed installer
- Plasterer (interior and exterior – is that one trade?)
- Electrician
- Heating and plumbing
- Bathroom installer (???)
- Drywall installer
- Tiler/flooring installer
- Fireplace builder
- Painter
- Landscaping
- Garage (prefabricated)
- (Insulation, roller shutters I am not sure where to assign)
Have I forgotten anything, and which trades can or should be combined?
How does warranty work in cases where issues arise in borderline areas and each party blames the other?
4. What are typical costs for construction management? Is it a fixed amount or a percentage of the overall construction cost?
5. How do the costs compare to a general contractor, who understandably needs to make a profit (for which you would have the construction management costs here), but a general contractor with a guaranteed fixed price will also factor in a contingency buffer that you save here.
6. Did I forget anything important?
I know these are a lot of questions and I look forward to your answers.
Best regards
@E.Curb
Thank you for your response.
Since I don’t know any reliable professionals in this area and have heard and experienced a lot of negative feedback from friends and clients, and all the homeowners I know only complain and are dissatisfied (costs are getting out of control, poor management, disputes over responsibilities, etc.),
I have no interest in catering to sensitivities or dealing with any “diva behavior” from “creative artists” when their designs are criticized. (I mean no offense; perhaps I have just been unlucky so far.)
I am the customer, and whoever pays the bills also decides what gets done—especially since we are willing to pay more. In return, I expect and demand appropriate services such as quality, reliability, adherence to deadlines, and keeping promises.
I will not tolerate this “messing around” and “fiddling about” in my home construction process (as is often mentioned in this forum).
The relevant contracts for work will be drafted by my legal department.
This approach is probably unusual, and I’m sure some people here will shake their heads, but if a craftsman doesn’t accept these terms, they are out.
Due to my “strict” approach, the “less competent” companies don’t even submit offers because they are put off. (The same applies/has applied to general contractors.)
The companies will also be paid quickly, as I do not require any financing for the construction.
Where people work, mistakes happen—I fully understand that—but I have no tolerance for unreliability, dishonesty, empty promises to obtain signatures, or the deliberate omission of certain construction costs that a layperson (and I consider myself a complete layperson in this matter) would not expect, which is why I ask the above questions.
Best regards
Thank you for your response.
Since I don’t know any reliable professionals in this area and have heard and experienced a lot of negative feedback from friends and clients, and all the homeowners I know only complain and are dissatisfied (costs are getting out of control, poor management, disputes over responsibilities, etc.),
I have no interest in catering to sensitivities or dealing with any “diva behavior” from “creative artists” when their designs are criticized. (I mean no offense; perhaps I have just been unlucky so far.)
I am the customer, and whoever pays the bills also decides what gets done—especially since we are willing to pay more. In return, I expect and demand appropriate services such as quality, reliability, adherence to deadlines, and keeping promises.
I will not tolerate this “messing around” and “fiddling about” in my home construction process (as is often mentioned in this forum).
The relevant contracts for work will be drafted by my legal department.
This approach is probably unusual, and I’m sure some people here will shake their heads, but if a craftsman doesn’t accept these terms, they are out.
Due to my “strict” approach, the “less competent” companies don’t even submit offers because they are put off. (The same applies/has applied to general contractors.)
The companies will also be paid quickly, as I do not require any financing for the construction.
Where people work, mistakes happen—I fully understand that—but I have no tolerance for unreliability, dishonesty, empty promises to obtain signatures, or the deliberate omission of certain construction costs that a layperson (and I consider myself a complete layperson in this matter) would not expect, which is why I ask the above questions.
Best regards
ranseier schrieb:
....because I don’t know a good one in this area, Just because you don’t know one doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I don’t know which region you’re from, but here in Germany there is no shortage of architects……
ranseier schrieb:
Besides, I’m tired of having to consider sensitivities or dealing with any “diva behavior” from “creative artists” when their designs are criticized. There are two kinds of architects: the artists and the realists. Pick a realist! Don’t worry, you’ll recognize the difference pretty quickly.
ranseier schrieb:
I am the client, and whoever pays the bills also decides what is played, You are absolutely right. But you also have to give the architect some freedom and accept that they have the experience and expertise. Many homeowners think they know better about everything, and in the end, they are surprised that things don’t work out or could have been done better.
ranseier schrieb:
The relevant contracts are prepared by my legal department. Wow, I’m honestly impressed.
ranseier schrieb:
Because of my “strict” approach, the “less qualified” companies don’t even submit a bid, as they’re put off. (The same applies/did apply for general contractors) And the “good” companies don’t need to take on jobs from “difficult” clients. A vicious circle……
ranseier schrieb:
The companies are also paid very quickly by me since I don’t need any financing for the house construction. Financing does not delay payments to the companies.
ranseier schrieb:
Mistakes happen when people work, I completely understand that, Sorry, but I’m not quite convinced by that.
Regards
B
Bauexperte21 Jan 2012 16:14Hello,
Regarding the “customer is king” idea: I have to disagree, as I am tired of hearing that only the one who invests more money is king. In my view, someone is only the king if they behave like one, and that definitely has nothing to do with whether they invest more or less money.
That would be the moment when I would withdraw from the discussions and wish the client the best for their construction project. It’s not the first, nor will it be the last time that I apparently “lose” good jobs that way, BUT my gut feeling tells me that in return our building company/tradespeople/we gain quality of life.
Our contract documents are the result of many years of experience, and I know they are fair both to the client and to the executing tradespeople. Since the parameters constantly change, we regularly update them, so it’s—if you will—a never-ending story. For this reason, I will never let myself be dictated to, because that implies looking for an order taker rather than a partner, and none of our building company/tradespeople, my partner, or I are order takers. “Contract” comes from “contracting” or “agreement”—there is nothing against adding some remarks at the client’s request here and there. As long as the balance is not affected, that’s no problem. Anything beyond that, especially if it even remotely suggests that in the end only one party, namely the building company/tradespeople, is at a disadvantage, is out of the question.
With all due understanding of your concerns—whether from current reports in your social circle or the media—let me tell you, there is always a perfect match between parties, and except for very few cases, the personalities/contract partners usually fit together.
Find an architect, as E.Curb correctly pointed out; Germany is certainly not lacking in architects. Work with them to develop your floor plans, and then commission them to prepare the bill of quantities/specifications. For you, this approach is probably the right way—though I doubt you will save yourself any headaches by doing so.
Best regards
ranseier schrieb:
I am the client, and whoever pays for the chapel also decides what music is played, especially since we are willing to pay more.
Regarding the “customer is king” idea: I have to disagree, as I am tired of hearing that only the one who invests more money is king. In my view, someone is only the king if they behave like one, and that definitely has nothing to do with whether they invest more or less money.
ranseier schrieb:
The corresponding contracts are drafted by my legal department.
That would be the moment when I would withdraw from the discussions and wish the client the best for their construction project. It’s not the first, nor will it be the last time that I apparently “lose” good jobs that way, BUT my gut feeling tells me that in return our building company/tradespeople/we gain quality of life.
Our contract documents are the result of many years of experience, and I know they are fair both to the client and to the executing tradespeople. Since the parameters constantly change, we regularly update them, so it’s—if you will—a never-ending story. For this reason, I will never let myself be dictated to, because that implies looking for an order taker rather than a partner, and none of our building company/tradespeople, my partner, or I are order takers. “Contract” comes from “contracting” or “agreement”—there is nothing against adding some remarks at the client’s request here and there. As long as the balance is not affected, that’s no problem. Anything beyond that, especially if it even remotely suggests that in the end only one party, namely the building company/tradespeople, is at a disadvantage, is out of the question.
With all due understanding of your concerns—whether from current reports in your social circle or the media—let me tell you, there is always a perfect match between parties, and except for very few cases, the personalities/contract partners usually fit together.
Find an architect, as E.Curb correctly pointed out; Germany is certainly not lacking in architects. Work with them to develop your floor plans, and then commission them to prepare the bill of quantities/specifications. For you, this approach is probably the right way—though I doubt you will save yourself any headaches by doing so.
Best regards
Hello E.Curb,
Thank you for your comments.
1 ...there is no shortage of architects in Germany
That’s true, but the problem lies in finding a good one among the many.
2. ...planners must be given freedom
That’s also true, and I do give the planners freedom.
But when, as a layperson, I have professionals design something and the result not only fails to meet our requirements, but is not even practical, it does leave me a bit breathless.
Example from our latest draft:
There is a gallery staircase from the upper floor to the ground floor. It was planned in such a way that the living room door couldn’t be opened anymore... The expert’s proposed solution was a (!!!!) 60 cm (24 inches) sliding door in an approximately 75-80 m² (800-860 sq ft) living room.
“No-go” situations like this happened several times, so I can no longer leave such a person full creative freedom.
3. We define the construction contracts
My legal department already does this today for the fit-outs of our office building (Although we are "only" tenants, we have taken on part of the fit-out). Since the building is also a listed property, additional difficulties arise that no ordinary person can imagine.
4. Good companies don’t need to accept orders from difficult customers.
WRONG!! Even good companies usually need to... because the economic aspect comes first, and customer likability second.
What you might mean is:
Good companies don’t need annoying customers who want a BMW at Trabant prices.
To relate this to myself:
I am not a difficult customer—in fact (although it may sound like self-praise, how else can I describe it here in the forum?) I am a pleasant, loyal, and very committed customer, for whom craftsmen, suppliers, and service providers are happy to carry out orders, often going beyond expectations in terms of care, delivery time, goodwill, etc.—which in turn means that I naturally order from these companies and craftsmen again next time, even if they are more expensive, because I want quality and reliability... so rather a “positive spiral” that has existed for about 20 years in some areas.
What you mean is that before I become a customer, I thoroughly check things (or at least try to), and that can be off-putting to many and sometimes unpleasant.
But I consider this approach better than starting with a “Palim-Palim cozy phase,” and once the signatures are under their standard contracts, you end up being the paying fool and the pawn of the fine print.
5. Financing does not delay payments.
Not entirely... if the general contractor pays their subcontractors very late, it does. Also, the process takes longer anyway... I pay the general contractor—accounting—payment deadline—and then the general contractor pays the subcontractors.
With my idea, the craftsman gets paid immediately. (I also avoid the risk that work stops when subs aren’t paid.)
6. You can believe that I am a very understanding person and deal with people (both privately and professionally) openly and honestly. I am also willing to be persuaded by other opinions, but only when I know I can rely on my “counterpart.”
Note: None of my actual questions have been answered yet.
Regards
Thank you for your comments.
1 ...there is no shortage of architects in Germany
That’s true, but the problem lies in finding a good one among the many.
2. ...planners must be given freedom
That’s also true, and I do give the planners freedom.
But when, as a layperson, I have professionals design something and the result not only fails to meet our requirements, but is not even practical, it does leave me a bit breathless.
Example from our latest draft:
There is a gallery staircase from the upper floor to the ground floor. It was planned in such a way that the living room door couldn’t be opened anymore... The expert’s proposed solution was a (!!!!) 60 cm (24 inches) sliding door in an approximately 75-80 m² (800-860 sq ft) living room.
“No-go” situations like this happened several times, so I can no longer leave such a person full creative freedom.
3. We define the construction contracts
My legal department already does this today for the fit-outs of our office building (Although we are "only" tenants, we have taken on part of the fit-out). Since the building is also a listed property, additional difficulties arise that no ordinary person can imagine.
4. Good companies don’t need to accept orders from difficult customers.
WRONG!! Even good companies usually need to... because the economic aspect comes first, and customer likability second.
What you might mean is:
Good companies don’t need annoying customers who want a BMW at Trabant prices.
To relate this to myself:
I am not a difficult customer—in fact (although it may sound like self-praise, how else can I describe it here in the forum?) I am a pleasant, loyal, and very committed customer, for whom craftsmen, suppliers, and service providers are happy to carry out orders, often going beyond expectations in terms of care, delivery time, goodwill, etc.—which in turn means that I naturally order from these companies and craftsmen again next time, even if they are more expensive, because I want quality and reliability... so rather a “positive spiral” that has existed for about 20 years in some areas.
What you mean is that before I become a customer, I thoroughly check things (or at least try to), and that can be off-putting to many and sometimes unpleasant.
But I consider this approach better than starting with a “Palim-Palim cozy phase,” and once the signatures are under their standard contracts, you end up being the paying fool and the pawn of the fine print.
5. Financing does not delay payments.
Not entirely... if the general contractor pays their subcontractors very late, it does. Also, the process takes longer anyway... I pay the general contractor—accounting—payment deadline—and then the general contractor pays the subcontractors.
With my idea, the craftsman gets paid immediately. (I also avoid the risk that work stops when subs aren’t paid.)
6. You can believe that I am a very understanding person and deal with people (both privately and professionally) openly and honestly. I am also willing to be persuaded by other opinions, but only when I know I can rely on my “counterpart.”
Note: None of my actual questions have been answered yet.
Regards
B
Bauexperte22 Jan 2012 11:55Hello,
At the moment, I have a lot on my plate, and some of it I just can’t shake off, like a dog shakes off water. As a result, I’m getting too little sleep...
Agreed. From that perspective, I can understand your objections; hopefully, you can understand me when you follow my responses here.
A very bad starting position for those providers; probably the number at the bottom right is the driving force.
I guess the chimney installer really can’t say. The supplier is a Dutch company; probably the installer must first negotiate conditions for themselves. I know that one of our clients bought a fireplace from this supplier and had it installed; just don’t ask me which series, as there are several. However, I do know the invoice showed a four-digit amount beginning with a 6; this chimney installer is probably the leading provider in his field.
Yes, I can confirm that. It’s a pity that Bavaria isn’t just around the corner and too far for a short visit; we certainly would have had an interesting conversation.
That will be very tight unless the building permit / planning permission is already submitted.
Best regards
ranseier schrieb:
Do you ever sleep? Yesterday your first forum reply was around 4:50 a.m... last reply was around 1:00 a.m ????
At the moment, I have a lot on my plate, and some of it I just can’t shake off, like a dog shakes off water. As a result, I’m getting too little sleep...
ranseier schrieb:
I’m happy to believe that "your" contract documents are the result of many years, but even you wrote last night in the "neighboring forum" in response to a question about the KfW: "Too vague." – and that’s exactly why I’m having these contracts changed. (After all, the texts are not consistent either)
Agreed. From that perspective, I can understand your objections; hopefully, you can understand me when you follow my responses here.
ranseier schrieb:
But it’s also true that some general contractors who are out of the running (because they rejected me) are now "knocking again" and trying to get back into the game.
A very bad starting position for those providers; probably the number at the bottom right is the driving force.
ranseier schrieb:
(This happened this morning while my wife and I were sitting with our third chimney installer... Do you happen to know about the approximate price of a Kal-Fire tunnel fireplace?? This third chimney installer "refused," more or less, to name even an approximate price today. Is that normal? :confused
I guess the chimney installer really can’t say. The supplier is a Dutch company; probably the installer must first negotiate conditions for themselves. I know that one of our clients bought a fireplace from this supplier and had it installed; just don’t ask me which series, as there are several. However, I do know the invoice showed a four-digit amount beginning with a 6; this chimney installer is probably the leading provider in his field.
ranseier schrieb:
I know that as a pot or lid, I’ll find the matching counterpart.
Yes, I can confirm that. It’s a pity that Bavaria isn’t just around the corner and too far for a short visit; we certainly would have had an interesting conversation.
ranseier schrieb:
The floor plan is set... I want to start no later than March...
That will be very tight unless the building permit / planning permission is already submitted.
Best regards
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