ᐅ Gas vs. Air-to-Water Heat Pump

ludwig88sta schrieb:

@Specki
Did you read the article, or why do you find it "strange"?

No, I was referring to your statement.

ludwig88sta schrieb:

Let me guess, you have a heat pump + photovoltaic system?
It’s always the same — many homeowners defend their system to the death and want to suppress partly justified criticism right from the start — here clearly in an unprofessional and childish way…..

You are completely wrong about that!

More than four years ago, I bought an old house and removed the very old oil heating system and installed a gas boiler instead. Now I quite regret that decision. At this point, I wouldn’t choose to do it again. Even though the gas boiler probably makes more sense in an older house than in a new build.

In a new build (maybe in about two years), I would only install a heat pump + photovoltaic system. Why? Because, generally, that is the most ecological and economical system.

As you can see, I’m not defending MY system, but after thorough research, I simply came to the conclusion that it is the best option. Definitely better than gas in a new build if you consider not only the initial investment but also the ecological and economic aspects over the coming decades.

Of course, there are also people who come to a different conclusion. That’s fine too. But please, not with arguments like the ones you derived from the article.

Best regards
Specki

@ludwig88sta Why would a heat pump be considered hazardous waste? You still owe us an answer.

And why should anyone worry today about what will be a cheap energy source 20 years from now? At least in new builds, almost exclusively underfloor heating is installed nowadays, which is compatible with practically everything. When the heating system breaks down, you just buy a new one, depending on the current subsidies and situation.

Personally, I still believe gas is the most affordable and simplest way to heat. That is unlikely to change anytime soon. Nord Stream 2 will be completed despite Trump's trade war against us.

Tassimat schrieb:

Why should a heat pump be considered hazardous waste? You still owe us an answer to that.

Tassimat schrieb:

When the heating system fails, you just buy a new one, depending on the current subsidies and situation.

Exactly this kind of behavior. I've often read similar statements here regarding the Geisha ("If it breaks, I'll just buy a new one, it doesn't cost anything"). You could also call smartphones hazardous waste since many just buy a new one after two years. That’s how I interpret the use of the word "hazardous waste" in the article.

See also my reply at 1:44 pm to user michert.


@Specki then I probably missed the mark—sorry for my premature judgment!

In the eyes of supporters, heat pumps are the climate’s savior, ideally powered by green electricity: heating and hot water supplied solely by wind and solar power, completely free of CO2 emissions. For others, they are a huge misconception, a miscalculation, and the hazardous waste of tomorrow.

Because heat pumps often operate less efficiently than expected, they not only burden homeowners’ wallets but also Germany’s energy transition. Especially in the winter months, when sun and wind do not reliably produce electricity, demand is highest to keep the many millions of propellers turning.

Falk Auer is a skeptic. The 76-year-old geophysicist and engineer from Lahr in the Black Forest has worked on energy supply issues for decades. Together with some colleagues, he published a “Heat Pump Manifesto,” which has caused quite a stir in the industry.

“We oppose the massive deployment of up to 15 million heat pumps without considering the consequences,” says Auer. The core of the controversial paper: Heat pumps require more and more electricity, which will not be available. And, more importantly, should not be available, because the federal government aims to reduce electricity consumption by 25 percent by 2050. Second point: Especially the inexpensive and therefore popular air-source heat pumps are inefficient.

Electricity demand must be covered by coal
“Even if the necessary shift to renewable electricity production took place as desired, the timing of heat pump electricity demand and generation from photovoltaics and sometimes wind power do not match,” states the manifesto, which was also signed by other energy experts from Hesse, including Werner Neumann, spokesperson of the Federal Energy Working Group in the scientific advisory board of BUND.

Furthermore: “It must therefore be assumed that the electricity demand of heat pumps currently and for decades to come must be covered by coal-fired power plants.” Ironically, heat pumps could block the energy transition.

etc. The WELT+ article also includes statements from the German Heat Pump Association and others. Buy the article or try the WELT+ trial subscription and decide for yourself what you believe and how you think things will develop in the future (gas price, electricity price). No one can predict with 100% certainty!

I am not a distributor of gas condensing boilers or anything similar, but I would simply like to include some points speaking against heat pumps in this discussion. Everyone can then form their own opinion. However, it is pointless to start ranting immediately without any real factual counterarguments as Specki did.

You don’t have to install a Geisha unit. There are excellent modulating air-to-water heat pumps that use propane as the refrigerant.
I actually find it somewhat hypocritical that hardly anyone gives much thought to the refrigerant.

ludwig88sta schrieb:

You could also classify smartphones as hazardous waste since many people just buy a new one after two years. That’s how I interpret the use of the term "hazardous waste" in the article.

Well, then everything is clear....

ludwig88sta schrieb:

Buy the article or try the WELT+ trial subscription [..]

I am not a distributor of gas condensing boilers or anything else,

I believe you right away that you are not a distributor of gas condensing boilers.

ludwig88sta schrieb:

However, it’s pointless to start reacting so aggressively without any real substantive disagreement, like Specki did.

Now for some actual content

A Weltplus article? Seriously? Sorry, but I don’t really consider it any more substantial than a BILD article. Anyone can claim anything there, and such articles usually aim to create a certain mood either for or against something.

You are still owed a definition of hazardous waste. Just because something may quickly become waste, it doesn’t automatically qualify as hazardous waste. That’s a completely different thing. Also, I don’t understand why a heat pump would break down much faster than another type of heating system? Heat pumps can also be repaired. Just because they are generally low-maintenance (some say maintenance-free) doesn’t mean they can’t be fixed if something goes wrong.

ludwig88sta schrieb:

Besides, in winter—if the planning is inadequate and demand is high—you end up heating with electricity, and the cost can really soar (especially for homeowners who blindly trust the general contractor, since they care less about the later electricity consumption in winter).

You can’t blame poor planning or an incompetent or uninterested general contractor (GC) on the technology itself. That would be like saying photovoltaic systems aren’t really efficient because of the storage, just because too many people are still persuaded to buy storage from solar installers.

We naturally have to assume that proper planning was done, that the heat pump fits the concept, and the good planning is implemented correctly. Then the technology works as it should, which is well!

ludwig88sta schrieb:

I see it similarly with electric cars. You just can’t say for sure if electric vehicles will definitely dominate.

Trust me, electric vehicles will prevail. Probably not as the only means of individual transport, but likely as the type most people use. If you look into it extensively and consider the situation outside Germany, it’s difficult to see it any other way, in my opinion.

ludwig88sta schrieb:

Similarly, hydrogen could play a big role in energy supply for single-family homes in the coming years (power storage over the seasons?).

I haven’t done the calculations, but I’d bet that if you want to store solar energy from summer in a hydrogen tank to use in winter, that will be very expensive and you’ll need a very large tank. I dare say that’s more than uneconomical and, due to poor efficiency, simply not environmentally friendly.

What’s wrong with drawing some electricity from the grid in winter to run the heat pump? If you install a proper photovoltaic system on your roof, I’d argue you can cover up to 50% or more of the heat pump’s electricity with your own generation. Properly regulated (PLANNING, see above) this works even without storage. The rest is purchased. Done. There are other renewable energy sources like wind and hydropower, so electricity will be available. If necessary, a gas power plant can be started up again quickly. That takes just minutes. Yes, a lot still needs to happen in the coming years, but it will. For a private homeowner in a single-family house, I still see the heat pump as the best current solution.

ludwig88sta schrieb:

Sure, gas prices can also explode—just like electricity prices—but nobody here really knows for sure.

And that’s yet another reason TO use heat pumps. Given the current political climate and how things look for the future, gas prices will rise much more than electricity prices. And with a proper photovoltaic system I can make myself partly independent of that price increase. You cannot do that with gas.

ludwig88sta schrieb:

Of course, you should plan accordingly if heat pumps become the absolute number one choice in 10-15 years... so that you can buy one then... Until then, the gas boiler—with its low initial costs—will surely serve well!

That may be true.

BUT: it may also mean you end up paying much more because gas prices have risen sharply, while you could have secured electricity prices now for a good percentage of your needs for the next 30 years (expected lifespan of a photovoltaic system) with a photovoltaic system.

Oh yes, and you’ve been merrily burning fossil fuels all the while… climate and all… not so great.

So, I hope that’s enough substantive criticism for you. I honestly had no time before.
Of course, this is just my modest opinion as a layperson who doesn’t even own a heat pump yet. And you’re welcome to see things differently. But then it should be a bit more well-founded and not just based on some strange article rambling about hazardous waste.

Best regards and good night
Specki