ᐅ Fuel cell or operating costs, photovoltaic systems and solar thermal energy?
Created on: 5 Jun 2019 08:51
J
Jupiter1234
Greetings,
I am currently working on the heating system.
We are taking over the house and property of my grandparents, built in 1948.
I don’t need to describe the current condition here, as we are planning a complete renovation anyway.
A gas heating system is installed.
The plan includes roof refurbishment, exterior insulation, new windows with triple glazing, underfloor heating in the bathroom, and a new heating system in general.
I am weighing my options.
I have come across fuel cell heating systems from manufacturers like Buderus and Viessmann and find the technology really impressive. However, I wonder if it is wise to remain dependent on natural gas. In the end, it is a great technology but still based on natural gas. My electricity would also come from fossil fuels, and I’m not really comfortable with that idea.
As an alternative, I have considered simply replacing the old gas heating system with a condensing boiler and installing a sizeable solar thermal system and photovoltaic panels on the roof. Combined with a large buffer tank and a battery in the basement, I should be able to cover the emission-free heating demand during the sunny months. In winter, the fuel cell system would probably still trigger the boiler to handle peak heating demand.
However, the roof slopes face east-northeast and west-southwest, which is not ideal.
The property is quite large, though, so there is the possibility to place the modules somewhere in the garden.
I really like the idea of combined heat and power (CHP), but in the end, the power would still go out if the gas supply is cut off.
Does anyone have an opinion for me?
Thank you
I am currently working on the heating system.
We are taking over the house and property of my grandparents, built in 1948.
I don’t need to describe the current condition here, as we are planning a complete renovation anyway.
A gas heating system is installed.
The plan includes roof refurbishment, exterior insulation, new windows with triple glazing, underfloor heating in the bathroom, and a new heating system in general.
I am weighing my options.
I have come across fuel cell heating systems from manufacturers like Buderus and Viessmann and find the technology really impressive. However, I wonder if it is wise to remain dependent on natural gas. In the end, it is a great technology but still based on natural gas. My electricity would also come from fossil fuels, and I’m not really comfortable with that idea.
As an alternative, I have considered simply replacing the old gas heating system with a condensing boiler and installing a sizeable solar thermal system and photovoltaic panels on the roof. Combined with a large buffer tank and a battery in the basement, I should be able to cover the emission-free heating demand during the sunny months. In winter, the fuel cell system would probably still trigger the boiler to handle peak heating demand.
However, the roof slopes face east-northeast and west-southwest, which is not ideal.
The property is quite large, though, so there is the possibility to place the modules somewhere in the garden.
I really like the idea of combined heat and power (CHP), but in the end, the power would still go out if the gas supply is cut off.
Does anyone have an opinion for me?
Thank you
J
Jupiter123424 Nov 2019 13:43Hello,
the whole topic has taken longer for us, so the actual decision hasn’t been made yet – but the fuel cell is definitely off the table. Regardless of the type, the fuel cell generates significantly more electricity than we expect to use in the long term, which undermines (especially the financial) efficiency.
On top of that, there is the relatively short service life.
In the end, it’s not a real option for us. The upfront costs are simply too high, and we wouldn’t be able to recoup the price difference compared to other solutions.
I’m convinced that this technology is the future for the mass market – with emphasis on the future.
the whole topic has taken longer for us, so the actual decision hasn’t been made yet – but the fuel cell is definitely off the table. Regardless of the type, the fuel cell generates significantly more electricity than we expect to use in the long term, which undermines (especially the financial) efficiency.
On top of that, there is the relatively short service life.
In the end, it’s not a real option for us. The upfront costs are simply too high, and we wouldn’t be able to recoup the price difference compared to other solutions.
I’m convinced that this technology is the future for the mass market – with emphasis on the future.
L
ludwig88sta24 Nov 2019 17:41@blackm88 I meant the fuel cell heating system running on gas? What do you mean by the home combined heat and power unit? I didn’t mention that, or am I confusing something?
@boxandroof But the feed-in tariffs for photovoltaic systems are currently very low (with a trend towards 0 cents?), so these feed-in tariffs contribute less and less to "paying off" the solar system. In other words, it will take much longer to pay it off than it did years ago when the feed-in tariffs were good. So I see it more as a problem if you generate a lot of electricity during the day but don’t use it yourself or store it (without a battery storage system), and you don’t get anything for feeding it into the grid. Right?
What also really confuses me is that you have to pay some kind of tax for self-consumed electricity. What is this "nonsense" about? Or is the sales tax in the private sector only applied to photovoltaic systems larger than 10 kW?
@Jupiter1234 So just a "normal" gas heating system? Yes, I also fear that you/we might be a few years too early with investing in a fuel cell heating system right now.
@boxandroof But the feed-in tariffs for photovoltaic systems are currently very low (with a trend towards 0 cents?), so these feed-in tariffs contribute less and less to "paying off" the solar system. In other words, it will take much longer to pay it off than it did years ago when the feed-in tariffs were good. So I see it more as a problem if you generate a lot of electricity during the day but don’t use it yourself or store it (without a battery storage system), and you don’t get anything for feeding it into the grid. Right?
What also really confuses me is that you have to pay some kind of tax for self-consumed electricity. What is this "nonsense" about? Or is the sales tax in the private sector only applied to photovoltaic systems larger than 10 kW?
@Jupiter1234 So just a "normal" gas heating system? Yes, I also fear that you/we might be a few years too early with investing in a fuel cell heating system right now.
ludwig88sta schrieb:
What really confuses me is that you have to pay some kind of tax even on self-consumed electricity. What is this "nonsense" about? Or is VAT only applicable in the private sector for photovoltaic systems larger than 10 kWp?If you own a photovoltaic system with feed-in of surplus electricity, you are considered self-employed. Therefore, the electricity does not belong to you privately, but to the business. If you want to use it privately, it must be taxed. It’s the same as a pub owner having to pay tax on the beer they drink themselves.
However, you can reclaim the VAT when purchasing the system. Alternatively, you can opt for the small business regulation, which exempts you from both (but that is usually not advisable).
B
boxandroof24 Nov 2019 19:14ludwig88sta schrieb:
But feed-in tariffs for photovoltaic systems are currently very low (tending even closer to 0 cents?), so these tariffs contribute less and less to “paying off” the photovoltaic system. The return is not huge, but significantly better than financial investments with similarly high security. Feed-in tariffs are lower than before, but the systems have also become much more affordable. If space is available, you simply build larger to increase the yield. It is only because of the lower tariff that we even talk about self-consumption. In the past, it was more economical to feed all the electricity into the grid, but even today, others benefit from your power.
ludwig88sta schrieb:
So I see it more as a problem if you generate a lot of electricity during the day but don’t use it yourself. Why?
There is already sufficient profit from feed-in even today. Self-consumption increases that profit further. Where do you see a problem?
Apart from photovoltaics, I can’t think of anything else in a house that generates consistent profits.
Of course, it would be nicer if the sun shone at night, but that (still) doesn’t make economic sense—and it doesn’t have to.
ludwig88sta schrieb:
What really confuses me is that you have to pay some kind of tax for the electricity you use yourself. What is this “nonsense” about? As already explained, you have the choice to handle it that way. As a photovoltaic system operator, you benefit from the tax system with the possibility to reclaim the 19% VAT on the system and to switch to the small business regulation after 5 years, where you no longer have to pay tax on energy consumption. Unfortunately, it makes financial sense to take the most bureaucratic approach.
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