ᐅ Fuel cell or operating costs, photovoltaic systems and solar thermal energy?
Created on: 5 Jun 2019 08:51
J
Jupiter1234
Greetings,
I am currently working on the heating system.
We are taking over the house and property of my grandparents, built in 1948.
I don’t need to describe the current condition here, as we are planning a complete renovation anyway.
A gas heating system is installed.
The plan includes roof refurbishment, exterior insulation, new windows with triple glazing, underfloor heating in the bathroom, and a new heating system in general.
I am weighing my options.
I have come across fuel cell heating systems from manufacturers like Buderus and Viessmann and find the technology really impressive. However, I wonder if it is wise to remain dependent on natural gas. In the end, it is a great technology but still based on natural gas. My electricity would also come from fossil fuels, and I’m not really comfortable with that idea.
As an alternative, I have considered simply replacing the old gas heating system with a condensing boiler and installing a sizeable solar thermal system and photovoltaic panels on the roof. Combined with a large buffer tank and a battery in the basement, I should be able to cover the emission-free heating demand during the sunny months. In winter, the fuel cell system would probably still trigger the boiler to handle peak heating demand.
However, the roof slopes face east-northeast and west-southwest, which is not ideal.
The property is quite large, though, so there is the possibility to place the modules somewhere in the garden.
I really like the idea of combined heat and power (CHP), but in the end, the power would still go out if the gas supply is cut off.
Does anyone have an opinion for me?
Thank you
I am currently working on the heating system.
We are taking over the house and property of my grandparents, built in 1948.
I don’t need to describe the current condition here, as we are planning a complete renovation anyway.
A gas heating system is installed.
The plan includes roof refurbishment, exterior insulation, new windows with triple glazing, underfloor heating in the bathroom, and a new heating system in general.
I am weighing my options.
I have come across fuel cell heating systems from manufacturers like Buderus and Viessmann and find the technology really impressive. However, I wonder if it is wise to remain dependent on natural gas. In the end, it is a great technology but still based on natural gas. My electricity would also come from fossil fuels, and I’m not really comfortable with that idea.
As an alternative, I have considered simply replacing the old gas heating system with a condensing boiler and installing a sizeable solar thermal system and photovoltaic panels on the roof. Combined with a large buffer tank and a battery in the basement, I should be able to cover the emission-free heating demand during the sunny months. In winter, the fuel cell system would probably still trigger the boiler to handle peak heating demand.
However, the roof slopes face east-northeast and west-southwest, which is not ideal.
The property is quite large, though, so there is the possibility to place the modules somewhere in the garden.
I really like the idea of combined heat and power (CHP), but in the end, the power would still go out if the gas supply is cut off.
Does anyone have an opinion for me?
Thank you
Jupiter1234 schrieb:
Well, by gas valve I meant that socially it is no longer desirable to heat with gas, or that economically it might not make sense in about 20 years, because gas has become extremely expensive.In 20 years, every current system will have reached the end of its service life. Then you can switch again to whatever the current state of technology is.fragg schrieb:
Fuel cell module: 0.75 kW electric outputThe system provides 750 W. You need expensive electricity storage to cover the daily demand. That costs money too, and whether a battery lasts 20 years is very doubtful.
To ask differently: Can you afford these gadgets in terms of budget? None of the options make sense from a purely economic point of view. In every case, you pay extra to ease your environmental conscience.
J
Jupiter12345 Jun 2019 16:00Tassimat schrieb:
In 20 years, every current system will have reached the end of its service life. At that point, you can switch again to whatever the latest technology is.
To look at it differently: Can you actually afford these extra features with your budget? None of the options make sense purely from an economic perspective. You pay extra everywhere just to ease your environmental conscience. MayrCh schrieb:
1. You heat for 20 years with one of the most economical systems available anyway.
2. Why should gas become “extremely” expensive by then? [...] Those are both good points, of course. Why not make the most efficient use of what you have now and then switch to whatever comes next in the future?
Aside from that, the argument about economic efficiency just made me realize that a combined heat and power system might actually be questionable in our case. Certainly, electrical consumption in a house will be higher than in an apartment, but in the end, it only makes economic sense if you use as much of the electricity yourself as possible. And when I look at the fact that the payback essentially depends on the electricity savings, the calculation suddenly looks very different. At best, I barely recover the investment within the fuel cell’s lifespan, and then you really have to ask if this is sensible at all.
Going green is always welcome, but losing money on it ... hmm.
In these nice model calculations, I overlooked that households sometimes have extremely high electricity consumption. The increase from our current 1500 kWh at 90 m² (970 ft²) to 4000 kWh just because we live in a house with a few square meters more seems unrealistic.
It’s a shame—now the whole project is in jeopardy again. I should have done the math properly beforehand.
B
boxandroof5 Jun 2019 16:11Invest in insulation and well-designed underfloor heating, as these are essential for efficient heating. Photovoltaic systems pay for themselves over time. A good heat pump doesn’t have to be expensive. When better affordable technology becomes available, you can always replace it.
If you have extra money, consider buying a battery storage system or rainforest protection certificates. It doesn’t get much greener than that.
The electricity consumption in a house does not have to be higher than in an apartment.
If you have extra money, consider buying a battery storage system or rainforest protection certificates. It doesn’t get much greener than that.
The electricity consumption in a house does not have to be higher than in an apartment.
L
ludwig88sta24 Nov 2019 10:10May I ask what decision the original poster @Jupiter1234 has made?
Since this is one of the very few threads about fuel cell heating systems, I’m interested in the topic and am reviving this thread from a few months ago.
Basically, a fuel cell heating system sounds great: electricity plus heat from a heater powered by gas. Like @MayrCh mentioned, I also don’t expect gas prices to skyrocket anytime soon.
The question is whether electricity will still be as expensive in five years as it is now. My future plot of land will have a gas connection, so I’m considering whether to go for a more affordable gas boiler (for heat only) or invest a bit more upfront in a fuel cell heating system to offset (potentially rising) electricity prices at the same time.
With photovoltaics, the main problem is that most electricity is generated around midday/daytime, when you’re not usually at home to use it yourself—unless you buy a battery storage system, of course. But with a fuel cell heating system, can it be set up to primarily convert gas into electricity and heat during the evening, night, or early morning hours? In that case, unlike photovoltaics, you could basically use almost all the electricity yourself, right?
Best regards
Since this is one of the very few threads about fuel cell heating systems, I’m interested in the topic and am reviving this thread from a few months ago.
Basically, a fuel cell heating system sounds great: electricity plus heat from a heater powered by gas. Like @MayrCh mentioned, I also don’t expect gas prices to skyrocket anytime soon.
The question is whether electricity will still be as expensive in five years as it is now. My future plot of land will have a gas connection, so I’m considering whether to go for a more affordable gas boiler (for heat only) or invest a bit more upfront in a fuel cell heating system to offset (potentially rising) electricity prices at the same time.
With photovoltaics, the main problem is that most electricity is generated around midday/daytime, when you’re not usually at home to use it yourself—unless you buy a battery storage system, of course. But with a fuel cell heating system, can it be set up to primarily convert gas into electricity and heat during the evening, night, or early morning hours? In that case, unlike photovoltaics, you could basically use almost all the electricity yourself, right?
Best regards
B
boxandroof24 Nov 2019 11:48ludwig88sta schrieb:
The main issue with photovoltaic systems is that most electricity is generated around midday/during the day, when you are usually not at home and therefore cannot use it yourself. This is not a problem. Others use this electricity just as you use "other" electricity. From an ecological and economic standpoint, it currently makes the most sense not to aim for a high level of self-sufficiency at any cost for its own sake.
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