Hello everyone,
I have already taken over the construction cost thread quite a bit with this potential project. I'll show you a few things and hope for your input because we are still unsure whether we want to buy the property or not.
About the property: The house comes with a 2500 m² (27,000 sq ft) plot made up of 3 parcels. It is located in an area with poor infrastructure (but that’s where my family lives, and I grew up there, so we want to move there) in Rheinland-Pfalz. Boris says building plots in the area go for around 50€ per m² (approx. $5 per sq ft). The land consists of 3 parcels and is partly in a residential zone and partly adjoining garden land. There are also many older fruit trees on the garden areas, which we like.
The house on the plot was built in 1928, with an extension from the 1960s. The total living area was given by our realtor as 207 m² (2,230 sq ft), although I don’t fully trust the calculation. The expert who showed us around said that the attic should not be counted because the ceiling height is below 2.30 m (7.5 ft). The house has a basement.
What we like about the property is the large living area, the possibility to renovate the floor plan to a relatively modern standard (ground floor), the huge plot with good distance from neighbors, and the existing old trees. What we don’t like is the current layout on the upper floor (little hallway, extension only accessible through room 7).
What we want to change (structurally possible according to the initial impression of our expert):
- Ground floor: Dining area will become the kitchen, the door between dining (which will be kitchen) and living room should be widened, possibly with a sliding door, the old kitchen will become a pantry.
- Bathroom on the upper floor, either room 5 or 7 would be suitable.
- Door breakthrough in the hallway upstairs next to the stairs leading to the extension.
- Old bathroom in the basement: This will be my husband’s home gym. The bathroom will be removed completely except for the shower so that one can shower downstairs after working out (or after coming in dirty from the garden).
We would probably use the attic for “less frequently used” rooms because of the low ceiling height. Maybe for storage and a nice guest room.
On the upper floor, there should be space for a bathroom, bedroom, two children’s rooms, and a utility room for washing and drying.
On the ground floor, living, dining, kitchen + pantry, office, and possibly a shower-gym area should fit.
Heating should go in the basement (energy consultant recommends pellet heating). I’m not sure how good that is; we currently have the THZ504 air-to-water heat pump with ventilation and really like it. I would like to have the same again but don’t know if it is suitable to heat a house that probably won’t get better than KfW 85 standard.
I have already taken over the construction cost thread quite a bit with this potential project. I'll show you a few things and hope for your input because we are still unsure whether we want to buy the property or not.
About the property: The house comes with a 2500 m² (27,000 sq ft) plot made up of 3 parcels. It is located in an area with poor infrastructure (but that’s where my family lives, and I grew up there, so we want to move there) in Rheinland-Pfalz. Boris says building plots in the area go for around 50€ per m² (approx. $5 per sq ft). The land consists of 3 parcels and is partly in a residential zone and partly adjoining garden land. There are also many older fruit trees on the garden areas, which we like.
The house on the plot was built in 1928, with an extension from the 1960s. The total living area was given by our realtor as 207 m² (2,230 sq ft), although I don’t fully trust the calculation. The expert who showed us around said that the attic should not be counted because the ceiling height is below 2.30 m (7.5 ft). The house has a basement.
What we like about the property is the large living area, the possibility to renovate the floor plan to a relatively modern standard (ground floor), the huge plot with good distance from neighbors, and the existing old trees. What we don’t like is the current layout on the upper floor (little hallway, extension only accessible through room 7).
What we want to change (structurally possible according to the initial impression of our expert):
- Ground floor: Dining area will become the kitchen, the door between dining (which will be kitchen) and living room should be widened, possibly with a sliding door, the old kitchen will become a pantry.
- Bathroom on the upper floor, either room 5 or 7 would be suitable.
- Door breakthrough in the hallway upstairs next to the stairs leading to the extension.
- Old bathroom in the basement: This will be my husband’s home gym. The bathroom will be removed completely except for the shower so that one can shower downstairs after working out (or after coming in dirty from the garden).
We would probably use the attic for “less frequently used” rooms because of the low ceiling height. Maybe for storage and a nice guest room.
On the upper floor, there should be space for a bathroom, bedroom, two children’s rooms, and a utility room for washing and drying.
On the ground floor, living, dining, kitchen + pantry, office, and possibly a shower-gym area should fit.
Heating should go in the basement (energy consultant recommends pellet heating). I’m not sure how good that is; we currently have the THZ504 air-to-water heat pump with ventilation and really like it. I would like to have the same again but don’t know if it is suitable to heat a house that probably won’t get better than KfW 85 standard.
M
Myrna_Loy21 Jan 2022 23:32It’s no secret that most people in this forum aren’t very interested in older houses. Practical advice is rare, and demolition is often recommended instead. However, it is perfectly comfortable to live in houses that are older than five years and don’t have more glass than an aquarium. 😀
(I immediately fell in love with the mudroom and the wood-burning stove in the kitchen.)
Thinking about the floor plan is nice, but without a structural engineer it’s quite difficult.
You also need to spend some time getting a feel for these houses in order to find the right layout for yourself and the home. A huge open-plan space isn’t always THE solution. Sometimes it makes sense. Often, it doesn’t, and that’s exactly why you can have a great house that doesn’t look like every other one in every new housing development.
(I immediately fell in love with the mudroom and the wood-burning stove in the kitchen.)
Thinking about the floor plan is nice, but without a structural engineer it’s quite difficult.
You also need to spend some time getting a feel for these houses in order to find the right layout for yourself and the home. A huge open-plan space isn’t always THE solution. Sometimes it makes sense. Often, it doesn’t, and that’s exactly why you can have a great house that doesn’t look like every other one in every new housing development.
W
WilderSueden22 Jan 2022 00:01Myrna_Loy schrieb:
It’s no secret that most people in this forum don’t really connect with old houses. I wouldn’t limit the issue just to house construction. When building new, you start from scratch on a greenfield site and can more or less adapt everything as needed. With existing buildings, you have to work with what’s already there, which makes it much harder to apply general solutions. On top of that, it’s difficult to assess many aspects remotely. I’m not only referring to things like structural engineering and building condition (which often still hold surprises on site) but also the layout of the rooms. In the virtual tour, some areas look extremely convoluted and very cramped, for example in the kitchen or the entrance area. I suspect the camera is heavily distorting the view, but I can’t tell otherwise from the floor plan either since it lacks proper dimensions. Of course, for older buildings things may have been done differently back then, or the original plans might have been lost. But this also makes it difficult to provide meaningful input based on a remote evaluation.Myrna_Loy schrieb:
(I instantly fell in love with the mudroom and the wood-burning stove in the kitchen.)What exactly is a mudroom?I don’t understand the fuss about keeping things secret at all. Here, every house is listed online with the address, and no one minds—why would they? In my suburb, Port Kennedy, just look on realestate dot com dot au. Houses simply don’t have the same significance as in Germany. People move when circumstances require it and don’t expect every home to be their “dream home.” Aside from that, people here generally don’t have the sometimes very high expectations common in Germany.
Are you afraid someone might snatch your plans? Then I probably wouldn’t share them here for discussion. You can buy a house without having strangers give their opinion. Everyone who replies has their own motivation, which does not necessarily concern you.
A house can never be worth so much that it becomes your life’s mission. Your child will spend a long time living on a construction site while the parents are busy with other things than parenting.
I completely understand that you don’t want to stay living where you built—it would be a nightmare for me too. But I wouldn’t chase the dream; the main thing is to get away to somewhere quieter, definitely not another new development, as that just leads to problems. On the other hand, it’s also no fun to share the neighborhood with established longtime residents. They tend to be very set in their opinions, and anything new or unusual often sparks neighborhood disputes. I’m over 70, but not the “grandma” type, and I don’t live like one—neither did my parents.
Are you afraid someone might snatch your plans? Then I probably wouldn’t share them here for discussion. You can buy a house without having strangers give their opinion. Everyone who replies has their own motivation, which does not necessarily concern you.
A house can never be worth so much that it becomes your life’s mission. Your child will spend a long time living on a construction site while the parents are busy with other things than parenting.
I completely understand that you don’t want to stay living where you built—it would be a nightmare for me too. But I wouldn’t chase the dream; the main thing is to get away to somewhere quieter, definitely not another new development, as that just leads to problems. On the other hand, it’s also no fun to share the neighborhood with established longtime residents. They tend to be very set in their opinions, and anything new or unusual often sparks neighborhood disputes. I’m over 70, but not the “grandma” type, and I don’t live like one—neither did my parents.
Myrna_Loy schrieb:
It’s no secret that most people in this forum have little interest in old houses. As a result, practical advice is rare, and demolition is often recommended too quickly. You can live very comfortably in homes that are older than five years and don’t have more glass than an aquarium. 😀
(I immediately fell in love with the mudroom and the wood stove in the kitchen.)
Considering the floor plan is nice, but without a structural engineer, it’s quite difficult.
You also need to take some time to feel the house in order to find the right layout for yourself and the building. A huge open-plan space isn’t always THE solution. Sometimes it makes sense. Often it doesn’t, and that’s exactly why you end up with a fantastic home that doesn’t look like every other house in every new development. “Falling in love” is the right term.
Falling in love with minor details that you didn’t even know would matter to you just five minutes ago. That leads you astray and clouds your perspective on the long, exhausting, costly renovation project, which might not even be financially feasible in structurally weak regions.
When the main motivation was noise disturbances, after all. You’re romanticizing, and so is Kati.
How does any of that address the original problem? Just wanting to get away?
Sorry, that’s where amateur psychology comes in — because this is really the main issue (though probably better not discussed on an online forum or similar platforms).
Your floor plan fantasies will be crushed by the structural engineer, there’s not much we can do about that. Are you ready for a project like that?
An old building means compromises, sometimes very short notice ones. Will that work for you?
Myrna_Loy schrieb:
It's no secret that most people in this forum aren't really into old houses. There's usually little practical advice, and demolition is often the preferred recommendation. You can comfortably live in houses older than five years without having more glass than an aquarium. 😀 That's a good point, and I honestly hadn't thought of it that way. Our new build isn’t exactly an aquarium-type house either, but I get what you mean. 🙂
Myrna_Loy schrieb:
(I immediately fell in love with the mudroom and the wood-burning stove in the kitchen.) Funny, my sister feels the same way. She said if we ever get rid of the wood stove, she wants to know where we’re throwing it. 😉
WilderSueden schrieb:
In the virtual tour, some areas seem extremely convoluted and very tight, like the kitchen and entrance hall. I assume the camera creates a lot of distortion, but I can’t tell much from the floor plan either, as it isn’t clearly dimensioned. Of course, it’s an older property, and things were probably done differently back then, or the original plans got lost at some point. But that makes it hard to contribute anything useful based on a remote assessment. In reality, it feels much more open than the 3D model suggests. You get a better impression by viewing it in 3D as intended. We actually toured the house remotely using an Oculus Quest 2 before visiting in person, and it feels completely different that way. Though, that only works until you start feeling motion sick. 😀
evelinoz schrieb:
I don’t get all the fuss about keeping things secret. Here, every house is listed online with the address, and no one minds. Why would they? In my suburb, Port Kennedy, just search on realestate.com.au. Houses aren’t as sentimental here as in Germany—you move when circumstances require it and don’t expect every place to be your “dream home.” Besides, people here generally don’t have the very high expectations you sometimes see in Germany.
Are you afraid someone will snatch it from you? Then I probably wouldn’t share my plans here either. You can buy a house without having dozens of strangers offering opinions. Everyone who replies has different motives that don’t necessarily concern you.
No house is worth turning your whole life around for. Your child will grow up on a construction site while the parents are busy with things other than childhood.
I fully understand not wanting to stay where you built your house—it would be hell for me too. But I wouldn’t chase the “dream,” just be happy to move somewhere quieter, definitely not another new housing development because that always causes trouble. On the other hand, living next to long-time residents can be no fun either. They tend to be set in their ways, and anything new or unfamiliar can trigger neighborhood conflicts. I’m 70+, but not the typical grandma type and don’t live like one—my parents weren’t either. The fear of someone snatching it wasn’t really the main issue. From a data privacy perspective, I just don’t want my real address linked to an online pseudonym. There are really some very, very strange people out there, and you don’t want to tempt fate. You can kind of tell by the fact that some people take the trouble to find out an address. Everyone can see it however they want, but I still find it creepy. Especially since knowing the address added no real value to the discussion (which was already mostly off-topic). Having the exact address instead of just “Saarpfalzkreis” doesn’t really tell you much more—like the fact that we might live across from a bakery (which, by the way, no longer exists)? Wow.
guckuck2 schrieb:
Sorry, yes, here comes the amateur psychology. Yeah, I notice that. I take amateur psychologists a lot less seriously since I spent some years knowing a trained psychologist. You learn a lot about yourself—and about amateur psychologists. You should try it sometime.
M
Myrna_Loy22 Jan 2022 08:58I don’t see any tighter spaces here than in many new builds. The entrance with the vestibule, transom window, and hallway area is a nice detail that hints at the original concept of the builder. The house leans somewhat toward the reform-style architecture. And that is a very beautiful, thoughtful design that can be well adapted for modern living. You have to imagine the post-war developments out of the picture to see the potential. Connecting the extension might be a bit challenging. However, even with poor structural condition, I would not hesitate to consider demolition. I also really like the upper floor.
Of course, it’s not a standard 2021 suburban house, but as mentioned, it has a lot of potential.
And the usual old neighborhood talk. Every neighborhood carries risks. You can find troublemakers anywhere. New housing developments may actually have more neurotic potential.
A building plot in a secluded location isn’t realistic, we all know that.
Of course, it’s not a standard 2021 suburban house, but as mentioned, it has a lot of potential.
And the usual old neighborhood talk. Every neighborhood carries risks. You can find troublemakers anywhere. New housing developments may actually have more neurotic potential.
A building plot in a secluded location isn’t realistic, we all know that.
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