ᐅ Floor Plan Ideas and Cost Estimate for Renovating a Semi-Detached House from 1939

Created on: 25 Mar 2024 20:40
B
Ben_des
Hello everyone,

now that it has become clear to us (and was made clear) that a renovation is better than an extension in the garden, I would like to ask for advice again from the collective intelligence here.

The facts:

- An architect has been hired and is already working. So far, we like the plan.
- The semi-detached house mainly dates from 1939. The living room on all levels is an extension from 1981, as are the balcony and the double garage.
- The ground floor is occupied by my mother. We live on the first floor. The attic floor is still rented out. The tenant knows he has to leave. The attic space has already been partially converted. It was insulated with glass wool about 10 years ago. Only the painting is missing. It is intended to become my office.
That means we want to combine the first floor, attic floor, and attic space into one unit.

Current ideas:

First floor:

- The existing staircase will be closed off downwards to the ground floor. For “family reasons,” we want a separate entrance. The staircase upwards will remain, or a new one will be installed (or restored?). It is still the original staircase from 1939.
- The entrance stairs will run along the previous balcony. The stairs will go up from north to south.
- Since we have hardly used the balcony due to its dimensions (7 x 2m (23 x 6.5 feet)), it will be used to enlarge the old children’s room and future dining room with kitchen.
- The kitchen will become a vestibule/coatroom and entrance area.
- The bathroom will remain, as it was completely renovated just 3 years ago and will serve as a guest WC/bathroom.
- The bedroom stays.
- The living room stays but should be brighter. That means even larger windows need to be installed.

Attic floor:

- The kitchen will become a utility room with washing machine and dryer. There will also be a staircase to the attic space/office.
- Since the tenant here smokes and the children’s rooms need to be placed here, we will probably have to renovate the entire core (or?)
- The remaining space will become 3 children’s bedrooms plus a bathroom.

Attic space:

- Will be an office. I would like it to be brighter and have more glass. If financially possible, I would like to have a large window with a nice view towards the city center.

Costs:

- An energy consultant recommended by the architect has already been on site. He estimates the renovation costs at approximately €370,000–400,000 (around $400,000–430,000). That leaves me somewhat speechless. I expected half that. Is it really that expensive?
He says that for subsidies, we would have to renovate the roof completely. Roof estimate: €100,000 (about $108,000). Technical systems: €100,000 (about $108,000). Interior finishing accounts for the rest. With €370,000 (about $400,000), more than 5 hours of personal labor per day is expected (!!). Otherwise, it would be closer to €400,000.
Google never shows me costs this high. Of course, costs are difficult to estimate, but this seems quite a large difference.
I would only have the roof redone if it’s really necessary or beneficial. Our focus is on the interior finishing. The subsidies are currently not high enough to make it really worthwhile to invest so much just for that, right?
We want underfloor heating and a ventilation system installed. But does the technical equipment have to be that expensive? The gas heating installed 16 years ago is still working…

Questions:

- What do you think about the floor plans?
- What do you think about the costs?
- What would you have done and what would you leave out?
Our focus is on a contemporary look (bright) and technology (underfloor heating and ventilation system).
B
Ben_des
26 Mar 2024 16:19
11ant schrieb:


You should also show that the ground floor (EG) is missing here, which is confusing.

The ground floor is currently the same as the upper floor. That’s why I didn’t mention it separately.
11ant schrieb:

By far the (dangerously!) largest item is the estimation inaccuracy. It’s in the six-figure range here!

11ant schrieb:

I strongly advise you to plan very precisely. Many renovation clients (and their architects inexperienced with older buildings) mistakenly assume that phase 1 of the service stages can be brushed off easily for existing buildings. The opposite is true—it usually takes several times more effort compared to new construction. Otherwise, for every item, you have to write “maybe” before it and “or double that” after it. While this isn’t yet the worst case, in this range it usually balances out.

We will carry out the detailed planning after measuring tomorrow. Which effort is several times greater than for new construction? Phase 1 specifically or in general? In the original thread, everyone recommended renovation because new build would be “financial suicide.” Is that no longer the case?
11ant schrieb:

Record and describe the current status and the planned actions very thoroughly! Also, the energy consultant should clearly state which conditions apply regarding funding for each measure.

Good point, thanks!
11ant schrieb:

I don’t have time right now to recap, but most of what I said in your previous thread will still apply to the revised project scope. At least I don’t feel the need to write more here today.

What exactly do you mean will still apply? The main question there was: new build or renovation.

Best regards
B
Ben_des
26 Mar 2024 16:27
ypg schrieb:

I would probably access the ground floor apartment from the “balcony” side, so placing the front door there, and you keep the stairwell.
1. cheaper, 2. I don’t think the straight outdoor stairs are practical everyday with 3 kids.


Very valid point! Thanks!
However, you would still have to go down the stairs and around the house to get to the garden, as it is now.
The charm of the architect’s proposal is that you can get out of the car and go straight upstairs with the groceries. And the garden is also close by.
ypg schrieb:

Energy-efficient renovation can be doubly subsidized through the granny flat in the ground floor apartment. You should take advantage of that. Yes, building has become expensive, and renovation too.
Which way was north again?


The energy consultant mentioned that briefly. Or maybe not after all.
What would you recommend, considering the overall goal?
ypg schrieb:

I think it can work without major fuss over floor plan changes like this.


The fuss is necessary since we now have three little ones. :-) So we need three children’s bedrooms. Along with that, we naturally want to modernize everything at once.
If it gets unrealistic, we’ll have to cut back on wishes.
However, the three children’s bedrooms, office, utility room, and separate entrance are must-haves.
And if new floors have to be installed, underfloor heating also makes sense. That was my thinking.
ypg schrieb:

And where is the item for facade insulation?


Good question. There is already 5-6 cm (2-2.5 inches) of polystyrene insulation installed, about 30 years old. Not modern, of course, but not nothing either.
But really, good question where that line item is. Probably under “doesn’t make much difference anymore.”
Y
ypg
26 Mar 2024 18:39
Ben_des schrieb:

However, you would still have to go down the stairs and around the house to reach the garden, as is the case now.

Well, in the medium term, a terrace with stairs will probably be created on the upper floor?! Wasn’t there one already? Or did I just imagine it?
Ben_des schrieb:

So that you can get out of the car and carry groceries up right away.

Easier said than done without an intermediate landing.
Ben_des schrieb:

The fuss is necessary because we now have three little ones. 🙂

Please read carefully again. I said “no fuss like here.” Others are changing every wall.
Ben_des schrieb:

There is already a 30-year-old, 5-6cm (2-2.5 inches) thick polystyrene insulation installed. Of course, it’s not up to modern standards but it’s not nothing either.
But good question where that item fits in. Probably under “no longer sufficient.”

You are kind of responsible if you want to change windows and… use the balcony as living space. There has to be some kind of building envelope around everything.
H
haydee
26 Mar 2024 19:37
You can take the cost estimate from an energy consultant as a reference, but nothing more.

Plan carefully and get several quotes.
11ant27 Mar 2024 01:24
Ben_des schrieb:

The ground floor is currently identical to the upper floor. That’s why I didn’t mention it separately.

It can’t be the case, especially regarding the ceiling heights. A renovation is a comprehensive process—you can’t just exclude the “mom’s floor” as a black box. Not least because a major change is planned here (separating the entrances).
At times, your project reminds me of the story of @Baubiene321, to whom I gave some advice back then:
11ant schrieb:

I think, at its core, this is simply about a separate front door for “Grandma” (so it won’t be a problem if she comes home from the disco very early?). One thing I can guarantee: separate front doors won’t stop Grandma from secretly feeding the kids chocolate as she pleases.

.
Ben_des schrieb:

We’ll do the detailed planning after measuring tomorrow. Which effort multiplies compared to a new build? Phase 1 of services or in general?

The effort in service phase 1 (basic evaluation). For an existing building, it simply takes a very different form, but by no means less importance. You can’t approach it halfheartedly; in fact, you need to be twice as thorough.
Ben_des schrieb:

Originally, everyone in the first thread recommended renovation, as a new build would be “financial suicide.” Not anymore?

No one here (or elsewhere) has changed their opinion. But you’re reading rather carelessly.
Ben_des schrieb:

What do you mean still applies?
The essential question was: new build or renovation.

Everything I wrote to you (if you didn’t just skim it) still applies. Both threads deal with the same issue: that tackling the project without a proper plan will make it unaffordable, while the actual needs don’t require any kind of reckless approach.

Your project budget is slightly over a quarter of a million, and with just two simple factors (a careless basic evaluation and the “free thoughts” planning approach), you manage to magically turn it into three quarters of a million. If that’s not a qualification to become an EU commissioner—give up your current job and go into politics.
Ben_des schrieb:

There is already a 30-year-old, 5-6 cm (2-2.5 inches) thick polystyrene insulation installed.

I am speechless about the way you keep hinting at essentials little by little. That even tops your recent stroke of genius (the new main entrance via the newly built fire escape, see the recommended reading at the beginning of this post).
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
B
Ben_des
27 Mar 2024 15:13
ypg schrieb:

I would probably access the ground-floor apartment from the "balcony," meaning the front door would be there, and you would keep the staircase.
1. More cost-effective, 2. I don't think the straight outdoor staircase is practical for everyday use with three children.
Energy-efficient renovation can be subsidized twice through the secondary apartment on the ground floor. You should definitely take advantage of that.

Hi,

Great tip! We discussed it and everyone agrees it's a good idea. Thanks!
We'll do it that way.
The garden will initially be accessed as before or, as you suggested, made accessible separately later on.

I'll look up more about the double subsidy.

We might also keep the balcony. We'll see how the current space works out.

Best regards