Hello everyone,
I have been reading here for a while, and now it’s time for us to start planning the floor plan. We had our first appointment with the architect this week and have already shared our ideas with him as preparation. We received a first draft, which we will discuss during our meeting. Additionally, we created some rough sketches ourselves (without considering structural issues, windows, the staircase is drawn way too small, etc. – really just very basic to clarify our ideas, I’m attaching those as well).
Development plan / restrictions
Plot size: 635 sqm (6,840 sq ft)
House size: 135 sqm (1,450 sq ft)
Number of floors: 1.5
Roof type: Gable roof
Maximum heights / limits: Knee wall 1.20 m (4 ft)
(We would have preferred a bungalow or a townhouse, but unfortunately, there are no plots available here. We are happy to have found one at all, even if that means we have to accept 1.5 floors and a knee wall.)
Client requirements
Basement, floors: no basement
Number of occupants, age: 2 persons, 39 years old (children are 90% unlikely to be planned)
Office: Home office about once a week – although I usually work from the living room with my laptop
Guest stays: maybe 2 to 3 times a year, so far managed without a guest room in the apartment
Architecture: open plan
Construction style: modern
Kitchen: an island kitchen probably won’t fit, but it should be an open kitchen, possibly with a breakfast bar
Dining seats: 4 to 6 – for occasional visitors – but that could also work by putting in a dining table as needed and otherwise using a kitchen breakfast bar daily
Fireplace: rather no, due to cost and space reasons
Balcony, roof terrace: terrace
Garage, carport: carport
Desired ground floor layout:
Includes utility room, guest WC, hallway, living area (consisting of living room, kitchen, dining area/other)
Entrance and ancillary rooms:
- small hallway with space for a coat rack
- utility room about 8 sqm (86 sq ft), space for technical equipment, washing machine, dog food & co.
- guest WC max. 3 sqm (32 sq ft); no guest shower needed
Living area:
- quick access from the entrance to the living area, ideally directly to the kitchen
- living/kitchen/dining area as large as possible (ideally approx. 50 sqm (540 sq ft)), minimizing space wasted by other areas/rooms on the ground floor
- kitchen possibly with island/breakfast bar if space allows
- book corner with window seat if space allows (for info: I have about 1,000 books and a piano – these need to be accommodated somewhere)
- space-saving staircase, preferably open/integrated in the living area to save hallway space
Desired upper floor layout:
Includes bathroom, bedroom, dressing room, hobby room, another room (possibly office, guest room)
Bathroom:
- bathroom with walk-in shower + bathtub (freestanding = nice to have)
- possible wall separation for the toilet (if it fits)
Sleeping area and dressing room:
- bedroom with walk-in closet/dressing room, if feasible given house size
- access from bedroom to dressing room and bathroom
Additional rooms:
- hobby room with space for desk, crafting corner, small seating area
- another room as office/sports/guest room or possibly a child’s room after all – alternatively, a larger hallway/gallery with seating area and light well to the floor below
House design
Designed by: planner/architect from a design-build company
What don’t we like? Why?
Cost estimate according to architect/planner: $240,000 – that is also the financial plan (excluding kitchen or additional furniture, plot and landscaping – total budget is about $400,000)
Preferred heating technology: air-source heat pump
If you had to give up something, which features/finishes could you do without? very reluctantly the dressing/walk-in closet
What is the most important fundamental question about the floor plan, summarized in 130 characters?
How should we best proceed with the draft? Are there ideas that could help us align better with our wishes for the discussion? Which ideas should we discard?
A few more remarks: Reading other posts here sometimes makes me feel guilty because we are “only” building 135 sqm and everything seems so “small.” Still, I want to get the best possible value for my money. Financially, this size is the most reasonable for now.
(PS: And in case the question arises: Why are children only 90% excluded? There are many reasons – for example, difficulties conceiving, but not completely giving up hope.)
Thank you in advance for your opinions.
I have been reading here for a while, and now it’s time for us to start planning the floor plan. We had our first appointment with the architect this week and have already shared our ideas with him as preparation. We received a first draft, which we will discuss during our meeting. Additionally, we created some rough sketches ourselves (without considering structural issues, windows, the staircase is drawn way too small, etc. – really just very basic to clarify our ideas, I’m attaching those as well).
Development plan / restrictions
Plot size: 635 sqm (6,840 sq ft)
House size: 135 sqm (1,450 sq ft)
Number of floors: 1.5
Roof type: Gable roof
Maximum heights / limits: Knee wall 1.20 m (4 ft)
(We would have preferred a bungalow or a townhouse, but unfortunately, there are no plots available here. We are happy to have found one at all, even if that means we have to accept 1.5 floors and a knee wall.)
Client requirements
Basement, floors: no basement
Number of occupants, age: 2 persons, 39 years old (children are 90% unlikely to be planned)
Office: Home office about once a week – although I usually work from the living room with my laptop
Guest stays: maybe 2 to 3 times a year, so far managed without a guest room in the apartment
Architecture: open plan
Construction style: modern
Kitchen: an island kitchen probably won’t fit, but it should be an open kitchen, possibly with a breakfast bar
Dining seats: 4 to 6 – for occasional visitors – but that could also work by putting in a dining table as needed and otherwise using a kitchen breakfast bar daily
Fireplace: rather no, due to cost and space reasons
Balcony, roof terrace: terrace
Garage, carport: carport
Desired ground floor layout:
Includes utility room, guest WC, hallway, living area (consisting of living room, kitchen, dining area/other)
Entrance and ancillary rooms:
- small hallway with space for a coat rack
- utility room about 8 sqm (86 sq ft), space for technical equipment, washing machine, dog food & co.
- guest WC max. 3 sqm (32 sq ft); no guest shower needed
Living area:
- quick access from the entrance to the living area, ideally directly to the kitchen
- living/kitchen/dining area as large as possible (ideally approx. 50 sqm (540 sq ft)), minimizing space wasted by other areas/rooms on the ground floor
- kitchen possibly with island/breakfast bar if space allows
- book corner with window seat if space allows (for info: I have about 1,000 books and a piano – these need to be accommodated somewhere)
- space-saving staircase, preferably open/integrated in the living area to save hallway space
Desired upper floor layout:
Includes bathroom, bedroom, dressing room, hobby room, another room (possibly office, guest room)
Bathroom:
- bathroom with walk-in shower + bathtub (freestanding = nice to have)
- possible wall separation for the toilet (if it fits)
Sleeping area and dressing room:
- bedroom with walk-in closet/dressing room, if feasible given house size
- access from bedroom to dressing room and bathroom
Additional rooms:
- hobby room with space for desk, crafting corner, small seating area
- another room as office/sports/guest room or possibly a child’s room after all – alternatively, a larger hallway/gallery with seating area and light well to the floor below
House design
Designed by: planner/architect from a design-build company
What don’t we like? Why?
- Narrow galley kitchen. I already have this in my apartment and don’t want it anymore. Is it really not possible to do it differently? Structural or other reasons?
- Staircase located in the dirty area. Shoes, dirt, etc. I don’t want to walk through that every time I go upstairs.
- Dressing room under a sloped ceiling. Not much space left for wardrobes...
- Office only 7 sqm (75 sq ft). Does that make sense? If, against expectations, a child arrives, this would be the hobby room, which would then be much too small.
- Bathrooms. Does the layout make sense? I always thought they should be arranged above/below each other.
- Technical equipment. Could it also be located in the attic?
Cost estimate according to architect/planner: $240,000 – that is also the financial plan (excluding kitchen or additional furniture, plot and landscaping – total budget is about $400,000)
Preferred heating technology: air-source heat pump
If you had to give up something, which features/finishes could you do without? very reluctantly the dressing/walk-in closet
What is the most important fundamental question about the floor plan, summarized in 130 characters?
How should we best proceed with the draft? Are there ideas that could help us align better with our wishes for the discussion? Which ideas should we discard?
A few more remarks: Reading other posts here sometimes makes me feel guilty because we are “only” building 135 sqm and everything seems so “small.” Still, I want to get the best possible value for my money. Financially, this size is the most reasonable for now.
(PS: And in case the question arises: Why are children only 90% excluded? There are many reasons – for example, difficulties conceiving, but not completely giving up hope.)
Thank you in advance for your opinions.
R
Reluctance24 Feb 2019 10:56kbt09 schrieb:
Your plan in post 1 shows 69.5 sqm (748 sq ft) of living space on the ground floor and 55 sqm (592 sq ft) on the upper floor.
What exactly does the agreed 135 sqm (1451 sq ft) refer to?Contractually with the developer, 135 sqm (1451 sq ft) of living usable area (sorry, living net area was incorrectly translated) is agreed. The “mixed calculation” and financing are based on this. Living area is different from living usable area.
kbt09 schrieb:
Can the knee wall be up to 120 cm (47 inches), or does it have to be that high?It can be. Maximum 1.20 m (47 inches).
kbt09 schrieb:
I hope you are gathering all these questions so that you can post the answers later in ONE post together with site plan, building dimensions, etc.?I will do that as soon as I have all the information soon.
R
Reluctance24 Feb 2019 11:14ypg schrieb:
I don’t understand the contractual setup where the square meterage is fixed in the contract and cannot be changed. Aside from your own budget, of course.
As I said before: Normally, you can change the house layout arbitrarily. Only the building regulations limit your options.
My budget limits me as well.Of course, I can deviate from all of that—that’s why I’m no longer building a town villa but a 1.5-story house. Maybe I wasn’t clear before, so let me clarify: last year we found a plot of land. Everything was settled, the notary appointment was scheduled for January, and we had the financing arranged, which has been active since January. Then unfortunately the seller backed out.
So we were left with financing and a house contract, but no plot (I mentioned this in one of my earlier posts). We then searched for a new plot and have just found one; the information has been sparse simply because we didn’t have it until now. Our financing is based on a 135 sqm (1450 sq ft) living area.
However, the new plot requires us to have knee walls, which reduces the actual living space. We could simply increase the living area, but that is not financially planned and would exceed our budget significantly—as I said, we have about 240,000 euros (roughly $260,000) planned and financed for the house alone (plus additional costs totaling about 400,000 euros (roughly $435,000)). We could also decide not to take this plot (since the notary appointment is still two weeks away), but we won’t find another one that quickly. So this is the context I have to work within.
ypg schrieb:
And don’t take it the wrong way if I don’t believe some of it:Well, that might be a bit presumptuous. Just trust me. I’m not making this up for fun. I would much rather discuss the floor plan than share half of my “private life” here.
Suggestion: Let’s just leave it at that. I will start a new thread when the time comes.
Reluctance schrieb:
The calculation is based on net living area (roughly speaking, the floor area—which adds up to 135 sqm (1453 sq ft)). It doesn’t matter if the upper floor then has less living area overall. Making the ground floor generally larger and having a smaller “build-up” upstairs won’t be possible, as it doesn’t conform to the usual local building style.Reluctance schrieb:
To be honest, I don’t fully understand the overall dimensions of the mentioned ground floor layout (11 x 8.25 m (36 x 27 ft))At least some measurements are given
Reluctance schrieb:
Yes, and as I said, the area is calculated based on net living area.Reluctance schrieb:
I’m not sure how it works when you add a knee wall—like a drywall or additional wall toward the roof side. Does the space behind it still count as net living area? (I’m afraid yes)… I’ll ask about that…No!
Reluctance schrieb:
Here it was net living areaReluctance schrieb:
Contractually with the builder, it is 135 sqm net living area (sorry, it was incorrectly translated as net floor area)Reluctance schrieb:
So, we had the financing and house contract in place, but no plot yet (I mentioned this in one of the earlier posts). Therefore, we started looking for a new plot. Yes, you wrote a lot, but didn’t mention that you were already negotiating with the same builder back then and thus had an existing contract with them. When reading, one normally assumes the usual process, which does NOT involve committing to a purchase contract with a builder before the plot is finalized. We also planned a bungalow initially, but ended up with a classic house… still, I was free to choose the builder.Reluctance schrieb:
The new plot now forces us to have a knee wall, which reduces the net living area.First clarify exactly what you signed. Net living area… You are switching between net floor area and usable floor area.
Net floor area means the usual calculation minus plaster, whereas usable floor area subtracts knee walls, utility rooms, storage rooms, and circulation areas. With the latter, you roughly add about 25 sqm (270 sq ft) more living area including those spaces. So with 135 sqm net living area, you are talking about a 160 sqm (1722 sq ft) house.
And my suggestion doesn’t conflict with the conditions you mentioned: I wouldn’t have any problem allocating either 90 sqm (969 sq ft) on the ground floor and 45 sqm (484 sq ft) upstairs or, for a 135 sqm (1453 sq ft) net living area (160 sqm usable floor area) house, 120 sqm (1292 sq ft) on the ground floor and 40 sqm (431 sq ft) upstairs.
Reluctance schrieb:
The new plot now requires us to have a knee wall, which reduces the usable living space.That is not necessarily the case at all.
You may have to change the type of house, but not the living space itself...!
ypg schrieb:
135sqm (1450 sq ft) with 90sqm (970 sq ft) on the ground floor and 45sqm (485 sq ft) on the upper floor, or for 135sqm (1450 sq ft) net living area (160sqm (1720 sq ft) gross floor area) with 120sqm (1290 sq ft) on the ground floor and 40sqm (430 sq ft) on the upper floor Exactly!! That’s why the idea is to have a larger lower floor and basically no knee wall upstairs, with a roof pitch of about 35°, so roughly half of the living area from below would remain as usable living space upstairs. Then a layout like
kbt09 schrieb:
basically making the ground floor larger and planning living/dining/kitchen/guest and reading/small bathroom/utility room there,
and then using a rather steep gable roof with a 120cm (47 inch) knee wall (22 to 25°) and accommodating sleeping/dressing/large bathroom in the standing area upstairs. would fit well.
If you want to experiment with it, you first need the details of the plot.
Generally, you would tend to orient the living areas as well as the dining/kitchen towards the south/west, but that is the street side, so the question is what the building envelope/planning permission on the plot allows. Positioning the house a bit further back and placing the carport cleverly in front could also create a nice arrangement. Additionally, an east-facing terrace would be possible.
R
Reluctance24 Feb 2019 12:49ypg schrieb:
Yes, you wrote a lot, but you didn’t mention that you were already negotiating with the same builder back then and therefore already had an old contract with them.
First clarify what exactly you signed.I have mentioned this here before:
Reluctance schrieb:
Until recently, we were planning with a completely different plot (750 sqm (8,073 sq ft), possible city villa, etc.), we already had the draft of the notarized contract, were about to sign, financing was approved, and so on. In the end, the seller backed out. Now we are happy to have found another plot so quickly.I already pointed out the issue with the area here:
Reluctance schrieb:
But a different question: You say I could now use more floor area downstairs, etc. But isn’t the base area of 135 sqm (1,453 sq ft) calculated from the ground floor area? At least that’s how I understand our builder... :? Or is he misleading me?And here:
Reluctance schrieb:
The problem is that the builder is referring to WNFL (net living area). With the originally discussed city villa, this wasn’t really significant. But now, switching to 1.5 stories, I lose at least 10 sqm (108 sq ft) of living space... I need to see if I can still get something back.ypg schrieb:
WNFL... You are jumping from net area to usable area.That’s correct. I found earlier that WNFL usually stands for “net living area.” Now I have the following problem:
- The contract states: "approx. 135 sqm (1,453 sq ft) WNFL"
- But in his area calculation, he again uses net area – see excerpt
So the builder is equating WNFL with net area, not with living or usable area. This leaves the previously mentioned problem with the area unchanged.
But as I said: many thanks for the tips and advice so far. I will gladly open a new thread if it makes sense and things become clearer.