Hello.
Since the 2014 Energy Saving Ordinance will apply from next year, I have a few questions.
We are planning to build a single-family house next year or the year after and are currently still looking for a suitable plot of land. Nevertheless, we are already considering the design of the house and thinking about what we want and what we don’t.
What we want is a gas heating system with underfloor heating and a fireplace stove with passive warm air distribution to the upper floor.
We are still unsure about a controlled ventilation system with heat recovery. This would make the fireplace stove more expensive because it would have to be air-independent.
What are the experiences with noise?
Are there noise bridges?
Can you hear the ventilation?
Is it possible to use the ventilation to capture warm air from the fireplace and then distribute it throughout the house via heat recovery, or bring it to the rooms being ventilated?
What we don’t want is a solar system for hot water preparation.
Is it possible to comply with the 2014 Energy Saving Ordinance with a gas heating system without solar?
Best regards
Rafaelsen
Since the 2014 Energy Saving Ordinance will apply from next year, I have a few questions.
We are planning to build a single-family house next year or the year after and are currently still looking for a suitable plot of land. Nevertheless, we are already considering the design of the house and thinking about what we want and what we don’t.
What we want is a gas heating system with underfloor heating and a fireplace stove with passive warm air distribution to the upper floor.
We are still unsure about a controlled ventilation system with heat recovery. This would make the fireplace stove more expensive because it would have to be air-independent.
What are the experiences with noise?
Are there noise bridges?
Can you hear the ventilation?
Is it possible to use the ventilation to capture warm air from the fireplace and then distribute it throughout the house via heat recovery, or bring it to the rooms being ventilated?
What we don’t want is a solar system for hot water preparation.
Is it possible to comply with the 2014 Energy Saving Ordinance with a gas heating system without solar?
Best regards
Rafaelsen
R
Rafaelsen21 Oct 2015 19:33merlin83 schrieb:
For us, the current Energy Saving Ordinance applies. We have gas heating plus a controlled residential ventilation system and just barely managed to comply.
Does anyone have the regulatory chain explaining why gas is not allowed under the 2016 Energy Saving Ordinance?
I would always prefer controlled residential ventilation over solar thermal and photovoltaic systems because I don't like sitting in stale air and it should be beneficial for the new building.
In my opinion, gas prices will remain stable over the next few years, while electricity costs will rise. Thanks to lower demand and stable supply (y).Hello Merlin.
That’s exactly the setup I am also considering.
How did you insulate your building?
R
Rafaelsen21 Oct 2015 19:45nordanney schrieb:
P.S. Heat pump technology is actually quite old and very simple. If you don’t trust the technology, then you might as well get rid of your fridge and freezer since they use the same principle. Operating costs are generally lower, maintenance is almost negligible, and you don’t need a chimney sweep.
I think you haven’t really looked into it seriously and don’t want to.
By the way, we heat 300 sqm (3,230 sq ft) with a heat pump. Including hot water in the first year (which is usually more expensive from a heating point of view), our monthly costs are around 55-60€ (for 5 people at a comfortable 22°C (72°F)).
From my own experience, gas boilers are very prone to issues. In our previous house, we spent at least 3,000€ on maintenance and repairs over 10 years.
Now that you have a negative report, are you switching to pellets?
What I mean is, you need to educate yourself on the subject. Giving up your dream home just because of prejudices (which also applies to the price of heat pumps) would be foolish.I know how a heat pump works. I also know how a refrigerator works.
They are based on the same principle, but they are still completely different devices in terms of design.
How many refrigerators that are 20 years old do you know?
I also believe you that you can heat 300 sqm (3,230 sq ft) with a heat pump. The costs you mention might be accurate as well. What type of heat pump do you use? Air source, ground source (brine), or water source?
A gas heating system would still be cheaper.
Pellet heating is not an alternative either. The system is expensive and pellet prices have risen sharply too.
B
Bauexperte21 Oct 2015 19:56Rafaelsen schrieb:
If the concept we planned with a gas condensing boiler, underfloor heating, and mechanical ventilation with heat recovery (MVHR) is not feasible, then we might need to reconsider whether to build at all and perhaps choose an existing property instead. Building is becoming even more expensive that way. You seem to carry a lot of “hearsay” and distrust in your backpack ... maybe also a bit of resistance to learning?If you absolutely want gas, you MUST submit the building permit / planning permission application this year; otherwise, it won’t work; the deadline is December 31, 2015. But: even with controlled residential ventilation, achieving the KfW 70 standard is only barely possible, as merlin83 has confirmed to you.
By the way, we replaced our 20-year-old refrigerator with a new one this year; it definitely was not broken. I guess you’re holding onto the idea of a ground source heat pump with your negative comments about electricity costs. This heat pump is only economically sensible when installed in KfW 40 houses or better, such as passive houses. When used in simple KfW-standard houses, it’s no surprise that residents end up paying high electricity bills.
Regards, Bauexperte
Forget the gas stove! I used to think the same... That was before induction cooktops became common. They actually combine the advantages of both gas and electric stoves.
But I still wonder: why not use a gas stove with a gas cylinder? The flame coming out of the stove shouldn’t be any different.
But I still wonder: why not use a gas stove with a gas cylinder? The flame coming out of the stove shouldn’t be any different.
N
nordanney21 Oct 2015 20:05Rafaelsen schrieb:
I know how a heat pump works. I also know how a refrigerator works.
They operate on the same principle, but they are completely different devices in terms of design.
How many 20-year-old refrigerators do you know?
I also believe you that you can heat 300 square meters (3,229 square feet) with a heat pump. The costs may be accurate as well. What type of heat pump do you use? Air-source, ground-source, or water-source?
A gas heating system would simply be cheaper.
Pellet heating systems are not really an alternative either. The heating units are expensive, and pellet prices have also increased significantly. A compressor is a compressor.
By the way, in the last 20 years (I haven’t been living alone longer than that) I have never thrown away a refrigerator. We have also never had one break down. We replaced an approximately 20-year-old chest freezer with a new model because we needed more space. There is a device about 15 to 18 years old in the garden shed for summer gatherings.
We ourselves use a ground-source heat pump. It made sense given the soil conditions and the size of the house.
What do you think a gas heating system actually costs you compared to a heat pump? Considering the initial investment, ongoing maintenance, and energy consumption – with your statements, you must have done the math.
R
Rafaelsen21 Oct 2015 20:10Bauexperte schrieb:
You’re carrying a lot of “hearsay” and mistrust in your backpack… maybe also a bit of resistance to learning?
If you absolutely want gas, you HAVE to submit the building permit / planning permission application this year; otherwise, it won’t work. The deadline is 12/31/15. But: even with controlled residential ventilation, it’s barely possible to reach KfW 70, as merlin83 has confirmed for you.
By the way, this year we replaced our 20-year-old refrigerator with a new one; it definitely wasn’t broken. I guess, based on your negative comments about electricity costs, you have the idea of an air-to-air heat pump in your mind. This heat pump makes sense—and is economical—only from KfW 40 standard upwards, preferably Passive House. If it’s installed in simple KfW-level houses, it’s no surprise that the residents end up paying a lot for electricity.
Regards, BauexperteDear all,
Do you really know that gas heating systems will no longer be approved starting with the Energy Saving Ordinance 2016, or is that just hearsay?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I’ve read, the Energy Saving Ordinance 2016 makes the KfW 70 standard the norm. Yet, the KfW 70 standard can be met with a gas heating system. And that without solar panels.
This sounds more like a promotional event for heat pumps.
I’m not talking about air-to-air heat pumps either. But air-to-water heat pumps also consume a lot of electricity because of their low seasonal performance factor. What performance can such a system—including domestic hot water supply—actually achieve? Around 2.3? 2.5?
And the investment costs for a ground-source or groundwater heat pump are significantly higher.
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