ᐅ Energy-efficient renovation does not pay off! What can be done?
Created on: 23 Aug 2024 11:27
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PATPATPAT
Hi friends. We are considering buying my in-laws’ timber frame house. The house was built in 1979 and, apart from the roof (14cm (5.5 inches) above-rafter insulation), it is not insulated. The wooden windows are also from 1979. Of course, the windows are old, but overall everything is still in very good condition. The energy costs (electricity + gas) for the 130 m2 (1,400 sq ft) house are 2,600 euros. Compared to insulated houses, this is quite high. Therefore, we have been thinking about an energy retrofit. However, the quote for new windows alone is 60,000 euros. In addition, there would be basement insulation and possibly interior insulation for the roof. We have ruled out exterior wall insulation. Altogether, this would probably total around 80,000 euros (including own labor).
These renovations would certainly reduce the energy costs. But even if I save half of the costs going forward (which is probably optimistic), over 40 years (I will be 85 years old then, I don’t expect to live longer), that amounts to 52,000 euros. So it is far from a cost-effective renovation... and theoretically I would need to replace the windows again after 40 years.
Honestly, I am thinking it might be better to do nothing (apart from aesthetic renovations) and live for the next years in a renovated house (but with a lower purchase price, about 280,000 euros) and bear the “higher” energy costs — especially considering rising CO2 costs, etc. Even if I assume the gas price doubles and receive a subsidy for one of the above renovations, it still wouldn’t be worthwhile. The resale value is also not decisive because the house is in a rural area — so rather a lower-demand location.
What do you think? Am I missing something? Is anyone else in this situation? What would you do?
These renovations would certainly reduce the energy costs. But even if I save half of the costs going forward (which is probably optimistic), over 40 years (I will be 85 years old then, I don’t expect to live longer), that amounts to 52,000 euros. So it is far from a cost-effective renovation... and theoretically I would need to replace the windows again after 40 years.
Honestly, I am thinking it might be better to do nothing (apart from aesthetic renovations) and live for the next years in a renovated house (but with a lower purchase price, about 280,000 euros) and bear the “higher” energy costs — especially considering rising CO2 costs, etc. Even if I assume the gas price doubles and receive a subsidy for one of the above renovations, it still wouldn’t be worthwhile. The resale value is also not decisive because the house is in a rural area — so rather a lower-demand location.
What do you think? Am I missing something? Is anyone else in this situation? What would you do?
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nordanney23 Aug 2024 13:42PATPATPAT schrieb:
No, I simply don’t feel like replacing something that doesn’t pay for itself in the end and doesn’t really bring me any advantage. Sit yourself or your children in front of the old windows and then the new ones. Once, it feels like you’re sitting right in front of an open freezer, and the other time, there’s no feeling at all—at least no cold, because no cold air comes through anymore. That’s an advantage you can’t put a price on.
PATPATPAT schrieb:
Are there people here who are against energetic renovation but also discuss its pros and cons? Done it several times myself. I don’t want to live in such an energy guzzler that loses value day by day and doesn’t offer a good quality of life.
PATPATPAT schrieb:
Unfortunately, I can’t see any real advantage in the expenses except for a few hundred euros (depending on the scope of renovation). Almost €20,000 (about $22,000) saved in heating costs per year? If the renovation including the heat pump then, after subsidies, costs around €100,000 (about $110,000), I wouldn’t see any reason not to do it. If that’s not an advantage for you, what else would it take?
PATPATPAT schrieb:
Better indoor climate? I don’t need that, it’s already fine, With “I don’t need that,” there’s no point in arguing with you. It’s a conversation stopper (actually no argument at all, just an indifferent attitude).
PATPATPAT schrieb:
Better resale value? How about maintaining value? Assume the value of a house without energetic renovation will drop to almost zero in the medium term. In commercial real estate, we call such properties “stranded assets.”
PATPATPAT schrieb:
Only climate protection would mean an advantage. And I would like to pursue that—but I can’t afford the mentioned prices... Can’t or won’t?
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PATPATPAT23 Aug 2024 13:55Hi Nordanney,
I don’t understand why you always assume it must be terribly cold 🙂. Nothing like that... hence my comment: so far, the indoor climate hasn’t bothered anyone. So why spend a lot of money changing it? Who is talking about 20,000 euros in heating costs? I said a total of 2,600 euros in energy costs per year overall. It’s a nice (mid-aged) house where living has been comfortable so far. The current pressure to renovate is making me think twice. And I don’t think it’s your place to question my lifestyle regarding sustainability. My family and I have a smaller carbon footprint than most. We only have one (used) car, consume very little, travel maybe once a year, use public transport whenever possible, and mostly avoid meat. So please, let’s all stay calm!
But please. This isn’t productive. These personal arguments in forums are silly and annoying to everyone.
I’ll wait for the energy expert and then report back on the renovation plan they calculate for me. Maybe you’re right and with financial support it will work out after all.
I don’t understand why you always assume it must be terribly cold 🙂. Nothing like that... hence my comment: so far, the indoor climate hasn’t bothered anyone. So why spend a lot of money changing it? Who is talking about 20,000 euros in heating costs? I said a total of 2,600 euros in energy costs per year overall. It’s a nice (mid-aged) house where living has been comfortable so far. The current pressure to renovate is making me think twice. And I don’t think it’s your place to question my lifestyle regarding sustainability. My family and I have a smaller carbon footprint than most. We only have one (used) car, consume very little, travel maybe once a year, use public transport whenever possible, and mostly avoid meat. So please, let’s all stay calm!
But please. This isn’t productive. These personal arguments in forums are silly and annoying to everyone.
I’ll wait for the energy expert and then report back on the renovation plan they calculate for me. Maybe you’re right and with financial support it will work out after all.
Schorsch_baut schrieb:
No car owner does these calculations. Yes, they do! Bierwächter calculates kilometers and driving time minutes to find the perfect property.
Schorsch_baut schrieb:
I wonder why people focus so much on the payback period when it comes to renovation. I don’t really understand it either. @nordanney already mentioned comfort: when I live somewhere, that’s my life. So why should I give up on possible comfort that is affordable?
You can insulate the basement ceiling yourself.
When I think of the glass gable and open roof structure, I’m reminded of my parents’ house: there, double-glazed windows are still sufficient. Others can be replaced while keeping the frame. Possibly consider adding an air gap insulation with insulating beads on the facade, and so on.
Rafter insulation should be done professionally. However it’s done (I am not an expert):
You should definitely consider including the preservation and possibly the increase of the property’s value in the payback calculation.
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Aloha_Lars23 Aug 2024 14:40PATPATPAT schrieb:
So why spend a lot of money changing it? Who is talking about 20,000 euros in heating costs?... I said a total of 2,600 euros (about $2,800) energy costs per year overall.Here is your mistake: the 2.6k euros (about $2,800) are the costs now. Think about tomorrow and the day after.
By the way: I always find it amusing how gas owners downplay their energy costs, and when Putin stopped delivering gas, everyone started demanding government subsidies.
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nordanney23 Aug 2024 14:49PATPATPAT schrieb:
I don’t understand why you always assume it has to be so terribly cold 🙂. Because it has to be, with windows that old. That’s physics. Of course, you can turn up the heat — but radiation cold won’t disappear despite comfortable indoor temperatures. There’s a reason why heating costs are so high. The walls and windows simply have to be cold; otherwise, you wouldn’t need to heat.
In my almost 30 years in the real estate business, I’ve never seen windows or houses about 35 years old behave differently.
Maybe you just don’t know the difference between old and new?
PATPATPAT schrieb:
Who’s talking about 20,000 euros in heating costs? … I said a total of 2,600 euros in energy costs per year overall?! Sorry, misread that.
PATPATPAT schrieb:
It’s a nice (mid-aged) house that has been comfortable to live in so far. Then keep it up. That’s perfectly fine.
PATPATPAT schrieb:
And I think you have no right to question my lifestyle in terms of sustainability. I’m not doing that. Just making you aware that you’re buying an energy waster that will a) drain your wallet and b) eventually be worthless because it won’t sell.
PATPATPAT schrieb:
But please. This isn’t productive. These personal arguments in forums are silly and annoy everyone. Nobody here is being silly. You are the one who wrote
PATPATPAT schrieb:
I simply don’t feel like changing anything that won’t pay off in the end and won’t really bring me any benefit. which is silly. There are many benefits, already mentioned. But you have to accept them — not reject them outright with "it doesn’t bring me anything" or "everything’s fine as it is now."
As I mentioned before, you are not thinking long-term enough. You are calculating everything based on today's prices, which is completely wrong. The data foundation of your calculation is already incorrect, so how do you expect to reach reliable conclusions?
Another point: if you don’t address these issues now, you will likely have to deal with them in 10 or 20 years anyway. By then, you will have fully settled in and will have to live on an active construction site for some time. Wouldn't it be better to take care of everything now and have peace of mind for the rest of your life?
To me, it seems like the money simply isn’t available and you are looking for reasons not to do it. If that’s the case, just communicate it openly. I’m sure many good ideas could be suggested here regarding funding, grants, etc.
Another point: if you don’t address these issues now, you will likely have to deal with them in 10 or 20 years anyway. By then, you will have fully settled in and will have to live on an active construction site for some time. Wouldn't it be better to take care of everything now and have peace of mind for the rest of your life?
To me, it seems like the money simply isn’t available and you are looking for reasons not to do it. If that’s the case, just communicate it openly. I’m sure many good ideas could be suggested here regarding funding, grants, etc.
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