Hello everyone,
I have a question. We got in touch with an architect through an acquaintance, but we are not really satisfied with the process and the work. Therefore, we want to part ways with the architect since we realize we don't really get along.
There is no contract that we have signed. When I brought up the topic of costs during the first meeting, he said he would charge the minimum rate according to HOAI and would first create a draft. When I asked what would happen if we did not agree, he told us not to worry and that something like that wouldn’t happen.
Now it has come to that, and my question is how to proceed best and what the architect can charge for his services.
What has been done so far: In the first meeting, we said that we wanted a house with 160 m² (1,720 sq ft) and a maximum all-in cost of 260,000 EUR (approximately). I explicitly asked if this was feasible, and he said it was achievable.
After presenting the first draft, the costs were estimated at 320,000 EUR. I said that while it was a nice design, the costs didn’t fit and that we needed to reduce them. We considered the draft and gave the architect changes since he had forgotten a room. Of course, we also told him to reduce costs. Our changes were implemented, but at the next meeting, there was no updated cost estimate. The architect said we would still be around 320,000 EUR. He hadn’t included blinds and underfloor heating in the first cost calculation. Regarding the originally stated budget of 260,000 EUR from the first meeting, he then said this amount was without his architect fee, although I had explicitly said it included his fee.
We then asked for an alternative floor plan for the next meeting, since the previous plan was a split-level house due to our sloping plot. He presented an alternative draft (I think it was some standard layout from his drawer), but without a cost breakdown. He said it would not be any cheaper than the first draft.
So, we keep going in circles without any real progress in reducing costs.
We provided further changes to the first floor plan. The architect finally reduced the building volume somewhat, and now we are at a cost of 300,000 EUR. He proudly noted in his letter that we have now reached our budget, if we deduct our planned own contribution (self-performed work) from the construction costs. I have to say, however, that after the second draft we raised our budget to a maximum of 280,000 EUR.
Now the floor plan no longer appeals to us because of all the compromises (for example, access to the utility room through the guest bathroom), and we don’t really trust the architect anymore (caused by repeated reminders about the budget, the drawn-in masonry fireplace which has still not been considered, and so on).
The fact is, our budget has still not been met, and we will not reach it without significantly downsizing. That has very little to do with our original 160 m² and 260,000 EUR to 280,000 EUR budget.
Now my question is how best to end this misunderstanding and what the architect can charge us. He should not have worked for free, but I also don’t want him to come up with an excessive bill. Honestly, I don’t even know in which service phase we currently are. We have partly completed Phase 1 – basic evaluation, but what exactly is the difference between Phase 2 and 3? In my opinion, we are in Phase 2 – preliminary design plus cost estimation. So far, we have only received colorful prints with exterior views and occasional cost estimates, but is that already considered design development?
I would be grateful for your advice on how to proceed best.
I have a question. We got in touch with an architect through an acquaintance, but we are not really satisfied with the process and the work. Therefore, we want to part ways with the architect since we realize we don't really get along.
There is no contract that we have signed. When I brought up the topic of costs during the first meeting, he said he would charge the minimum rate according to HOAI and would first create a draft. When I asked what would happen if we did not agree, he told us not to worry and that something like that wouldn’t happen.
Now it has come to that, and my question is how to proceed best and what the architect can charge for his services.
What has been done so far: In the first meeting, we said that we wanted a house with 160 m² (1,720 sq ft) and a maximum all-in cost of 260,000 EUR (approximately). I explicitly asked if this was feasible, and he said it was achievable.
After presenting the first draft, the costs were estimated at 320,000 EUR. I said that while it was a nice design, the costs didn’t fit and that we needed to reduce them. We considered the draft and gave the architect changes since he had forgotten a room. Of course, we also told him to reduce costs. Our changes were implemented, but at the next meeting, there was no updated cost estimate. The architect said we would still be around 320,000 EUR. He hadn’t included blinds and underfloor heating in the first cost calculation. Regarding the originally stated budget of 260,000 EUR from the first meeting, he then said this amount was without his architect fee, although I had explicitly said it included his fee.
We then asked for an alternative floor plan for the next meeting, since the previous plan was a split-level house due to our sloping plot. He presented an alternative draft (I think it was some standard layout from his drawer), but without a cost breakdown. He said it would not be any cheaper than the first draft.
So, we keep going in circles without any real progress in reducing costs.
We provided further changes to the first floor plan. The architect finally reduced the building volume somewhat, and now we are at a cost of 300,000 EUR. He proudly noted in his letter that we have now reached our budget, if we deduct our planned own contribution (self-performed work) from the construction costs. I have to say, however, that after the second draft we raised our budget to a maximum of 280,000 EUR.
Now the floor plan no longer appeals to us because of all the compromises (for example, access to the utility room through the guest bathroom), and we don’t really trust the architect anymore (caused by repeated reminders about the budget, the drawn-in masonry fireplace which has still not been considered, and so on).
The fact is, our budget has still not been met, and we will not reach it without significantly downsizing. That has very little to do with our original 160 m² and 260,000 EUR to 280,000 EUR budget.
Now my question is how best to end this misunderstanding and what the architect can charge us. He should not have worked for free, but I also don’t want him to come up with an excessive bill. Honestly, I don’t even know in which service phase we currently are. We have partly completed Phase 1 – basic evaluation, but what exactly is the difference between Phase 2 and 3? In my opinion, we are in Phase 2 – preliminary design plus cost estimation. So far, we have only received colorful prints with exterior views and occasional cost estimates, but is that already considered design development?
I would be grateful for your advice on how to proceed best.
B
Bauexperte14 Jul 2015 12:29Hello,
Since you didn’t agree on anything else, and unfortunately nothing in writing, the minimum rate according to HOAI applies; this is actually the best case for you under a verbal agreement.
I also read here that you (you and the architect) missed the chance to communicate clearly enough so that the other party fully understood what was meant; probably this was mutual.
That sounds about right, yes. If that is confirmed, your architect can invoice a fee of around €4,300.00 gross if you decide to end the collaboration at this point. However, you should be aware that your ideas for the house (I remember the discussion here) will not be inexpensive to realize. Therefore, no other architect will likely be able to present you with figures that are more favorable from your perspective.
If I were you, I would calmly initiate a conversation with the architect and explain your reasons for wanting to end the collaboration factually. Should that discussion, against expectations, get out of hand financially – your architect has no interest in a non-consensual working relationship – you can still contact the Architects’ Chamber as a mediator.
But there is still quite a way to go until then. So stay calm and let things develop naturally.
Regards, Bauexperte
Tommes78 schrieb:
There is no contract that we signed. When I brought up costs in the first conversation, he said he charges based on the minimum rate according to the HOAI, and he would first create a draft.
Since you didn’t agree on anything else, and unfortunately nothing in writing, the minimum rate according to HOAI applies; this is actually the best case for you under a verbal agreement.
Tommes78 schrieb:
Now the floor plan no longer appeals to us because of all the cutouts....
I also read here that you (you and the architect) missed the chance to communicate clearly enough so that the other party fully understood what was meant; probably this was mutual.
Tommes78 schrieb:
In my opinion, we are at phase 2 – preliminary design + cost estimate.
That sounds about right, yes. If that is confirmed, your architect can invoice a fee of around €4,300.00 gross if you decide to end the collaboration at this point. However, you should be aware that your ideas for the house (I remember the discussion here) will not be inexpensive to realize. Therefore, no other architect will likely be able to present you with figures that are more favorable from your perspective.
If I were you, I would calmly initiate a conversation with the architect and explain your reasons for wanting to end the collaboration factually. Should that discussion, against expectations, get out of hand financially – your architect has no interest in a non-consensual working relationship – you can still contact the Architects’ Chamber as a mediator.
But there is still quite a way to go until then. So stay calm and let things develop naturally.
Regards, Bauexperte
Thank you, building expert, for your response. Well, you have to understand that the first draft was €60,000 over our stated budget. I didn’t tell him exactly what to plan. Our requirement was a 160 m² (1,722 sq ft) house with a budget of €260,000, even though I now realize that wasn’t very realistic. In my opinion, he should have told me that when I gave him our limit, instead of just going ahead and then exceeding the budget by such a large amount. And the situation doesn’t improve with the changes.
Anyway, I will try to have a normal conversation with him and hope to come out of it reasonably well. Although €4,300 would be too much for me, since I believe he hasn’t fully covered the individual services in phases 1 and 2. But we’ll see when he gives me a price of what he wants.
Anyway, I will try to have a normal conversation with him and hope to come out of it reasonably well. Although €4,300 would be too much for me, since I believe he hasn’t fully covered the individual services in phases 1 and 2. But we’ll see when he gives me a price of what he wants.
B
Bauexperte14 Jul 2015 14:17Hello,
For comparison: we just designed a split-level house for a client—not because of the plot conditions, but simply because they liked a split-level. On the ground floor, we have two levels with clear ceiling heights of 2.36 m (7 ft 9 in) and 2.735 m (9 ft), the basement is similarly 2.31 m (7 ft 7 in) and 2.685 m (8 ft 10 in) clear height; in total 164 m² (1,765 sq ft) plus attic expansion potential and about 80 m² (860 sq ft) of usable basement space. So far, the cost is €343,000; plus €26,000 for converting the basement space into living area, plus various extras on the clients’ “nice to have” list. It is a straightforward design, without corners, projections, or changes in roof forms like your architect drew, yet the prices are not that far apart.
I estimate that for a 160 m² (1,722 sq ft) house with a basement, you will probably be looking at around €300,000 for a standard build. A straightforward single-story gable roof house plus the additional costs caused by the hillside location, groundwater layers, possible basement conversion, extras, etc. Hopefully you can see that it won’t get significantly cheaper. A hillside plot may look great but always requires a larger budget than mostly flat land.
Regards, Bauexperte
Tommes78 schrieb:That’s why I wrote that, in my humble opinion, you hadn’t communicated properly with each other. I just looked at the draft again and remembered that my estimated figure was actually much higher than the architect’s €320,000.
Thanks, Bauexperte, for your answer. Well, you have to see that the first draft was €60,000 over our stated budget. I didn’t tell him exactly what to plan. Our specification was a 160 m² (1,722 sq ft) house with a budget of €260,000, even though I realize now that wasn’t realistic.
For comparison: we just designed a split-level house for a client—not because of the plot conditions, but simply because they liked a split-level. On the ground floor, we have two levels with clear ceiling heights of 2.36 m (7 ft 9 in) and 2.735 m (9 ft), the basement is similarly 2.31 m (7 ft 7 in) and 2.685 m (8 ft 10 in) clear height; in total 164 m² (1,765 sq ft) plus attic expansion potential and about 80 m² (860 sq ft) of usable basement space. So far, the cost is €343,000; plus €26,000 for converting the basement space into living area, plus various extras on the clients’ “nice to have” list. It is a straightforward design, without corners, projections, or changes in roof forms like your architect drew, yet the prices are not that far apart.
I estimate that for a 160 m² (1,722 sq ft) house with a basement, you will probably be looking at around €300,000 for a standard build. A straightforward single-story gable roof house plus the additional costs caused by the hillside location, groundwater layers, possible basement conversion, extras, etc. Hopefully you can see that it won’t get significantly cheaper. A hillside plot may look great but always requires a larger budget than mostly flat land.
Tommes78 schrieb:It’s not about your opinion, but about the services your architect has provided so far. So try— I know it’s difficult— to approach the conversation as fairly as possible. If you try to explain his services to him, it surely won’t make your negotiating position any easier.
Well, I will try to talk to him normally and hope to come out of it reasonably well. Although even the €4,300 fee would be too much for me, since I think the architect didn’t fully cover the individual services of phases 1 and 2. But we’ll see when he quotes a price for what he wants.
Regards, Bauexperte
@Bauexperte - He has to provide proof of the work he claims to have done. He can’t just demand payment without that. Even in the different phases, there are specific services that must be completed before they can be billed. I doubt those services have been properly provided. Well, we will see once I have talked to him.
@Musketier - I understand that it won’t be cheaper elsewhere if we build with an architect. But this has really damaged our relationship. Our wishes are not being considered because he simply doesn’t listen or respond to our needs. Since the first meeting, we wanted an indoor fireplace, but this was never planned. He always refers to a stainless steel chimney pipe that can be installed on the outside. We also wanted the upper dormer in the bathroom, but that never happened. We asked for electric blinds, but they say, “just use curtains.” Regarding the geothermal heat pump and the subsidy, the architect says it’s not worth it, and the heating installers just add the subsidy on top anyway, and so on. There are so many issues where we just disagree and have different views. That’s also why we want to end this.
@Musketier - I understand that it won’t be cheaper elsewhere if we build with an architect. But this has really damaged our relationship. Our wishes are not being considered because he simply doesn’t listen or respond to our needs. Since the first meeting, we wanted an indoor fireplace, but this was never planned. He always refers to a stainless steel chimney pipe that can be installed on the outside. We also wanted the upper dormer in the bathroom, but that never happened. We asked for electric blinds, but they say, “just use curtains.” Regarding the geothermal heat pump and the subsidy, the architect says it’s not worth it, and the heating installers just add the subsidy on top anyway, and so on. There are so many issues where we just disagree and have different views. That’s also why we want to end this.
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