ᐅ Costs for Heat Pumps and Photovoltaic Systems in Small Older Homes in 2024
Created on: 29 Feb 2024 17:33
W
Winniefred
Hello,
we plan to equip our old building with a heat pump and photovoltaic system by 2028. Currently, we heat with gas and have a consumption of about 7,000 kWh/year. The gas heating system was installed in 2010. Since the end of 2023, we also have solar thermal panels on the facade, but I cannot yet say how much energy they save. The house has 88 m² (947 ft²) spread over 3 floors, was built in 1921, the facade insulation dates from 1993, the insulation towards the basement is from 2023, and the roof insulation was done in 2017. The roof is a hipped roof with three sides: one facing southeast, one south, and one southwest, receiving sunlight from early to late. We left space there for a photovoltaic system, which is why the solar thermal panels are mounted on the south facade. On the ground floor (about 37 m² (398 ft²)) we have underfloor heating, and on the other two floors radiators from 2017.
Many of you have good expertise with heat pumps. What would you roughly estimate currently in 2024, and what type of system would be generally suitable here? We need to plan this long term, so we would appreciate a rough estimate. Our plumbing company is completely overloaded and we are not very satisfied with them; therefore, we do not want to consult them. Since the project will not begin for several years, I do not want to involve another company at this stage.
I understand that many details are still unclear. Nevertheless, I would appreciate any responses.
we plan to equip our old building with a heat pump and photovoltaic system by 2028. Currently, we heat with gas and have a consumption of about 7,000 kWh/year. The gas heating system was installed in 2010. Since the end of 2023, we also have solar thermal panels on the facade, but I cannot yet say how much energy they save. The house has 88 m² (947 ft²) spread over 3 floors, was built in 1921, the facade insulation dates from 1993, the insulation towards the basement is from 2023, and the roof insulation was done in 2017. The roof is a hipped roof with three sides: one facing southeast, one south, and one southwest, receiving sunlight from early to late. We left space there for a photovoltaic system, which is why the solar thermal panels are mounted on the south facade. On the ground floor (about 37 m² (398 ft²)) we have underfloor heating, and on the other two floors radiators from 2017.
Many of you have good expertise with heat pumps. What would you roughly estimate currently in 2024, and what type of system would be generally suitable here? We need to plan this long term, so we would appreciate a rough estimate. Our plumbing company is completely overloaded and we are not very satisfied with them; therefore, we do not want to consult them. Since the project will not begin for several years, I do not want to involve another company at this stage.
I understand that many details are still unclear. Nevertheless, I would appreciate any responses.
N
nordanney29 Feb 2024 19:14dertill schrieb:
The Panasonic combination indoor unit + outdoor unit 5 kW costs around €6,500 (approx. $7,000). Where do you get such bad prices? The unit including delivery (without piping, etc.) costs under €5,000 (approx. $5,400).
dertill schrieb:
The most important thing during renovation: leave out everything that can be omitted (buffer tanks, for example, and definitely no combined buffer tanks), no individual room control or at least keep 80% of heating circuits/radiators running continuously, hydraulic balancing method B = room-by-room heat load and adjustment of flow rates, possibly enlarging radiators (the only important factor is the highest required temperature in the system loop – that needs to be reduced), no mixing valves (mixers = water too warm and can be cooled down), and size the heat pump correctly – in your case without detailed calculation: at most the smallest heat pump, so 5 kW.
This can be done by either a competent specialist company (very rare), a good energy efficiency expert (sometimes), or an experienced planning company (usually booked and expensive); always critically question the result until you fully understand it yourself. Thumbs up!
dertill schrieb:
No, I don’t get anything from Panasonic. I have seen their systems operating with real data at two acquaintances (Generation H and J), and my own Generation J (because propane is not allowed at the installation site) will arrive this summer; for my mother-in-law, the L generation next year. I have already installed two units myself (Jeishas) and can also confirm excellent performance (although both Jeishas together were only slightly cheaper 3.5 years ago than the new L generation is today. That says a lot about rising construction costs...).
nordanney schrieb:
Where do you get such poor prices? The unit including delivery (excluding piping, etc.) is under €5,000 (about $5,400). The indoor unit as a combined hydromodule with a 185-liter (49-gallon) hot water storage tank is about €1,000 (approximately $1,080) more expensive than without. However, the hot water storage tank alone doesn’t cost less extra and requires more installation effort and space. Yes, you can get them for €6,100 (around $6,600) at Jaworski (who also provides consulting and supports DIY enthusiasts), and maybe even cheaper on eBay from some reseller—but a professional plumbing company won’t be able to do it at that price, so €6,500 (about $7,000) is already a good price.
Piping, draining/frost protection, expansion tank, insulation, filling valve, safety group, etc., all come with additional costs, so the €8,000 (approximately $8,600) total is a realistic estimate.
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nordanney29 Feb 2024 20:12dertill schrieb:
The indoor unit as a combined hydro module with a 185 liter (49 gallon) hot water storage tank is about 1,000 euros more expensive than without.Okay, if you mean the combined hydro module, then that’s correct. I get about the same price from my dealer.The 8,000 euros figure also roughly fits if you don’t go for the full service of a company but hire individual contractors.
Nevertheless, I think my example of a complete installation well below 20,000 euros is quite good, especially compared to our expensive installers with their German “branded products.”
Winniefred1 Mar 2024 11:38nordanney schrieb:
So – as of today, you should expect or plan for a starting price of around €20,000 (approximately $22,000) before any subsidies. I just saw a quote: replacing an old gas heating system with a Panasonic heat pump. The total offer from the contractor was €19,900 (about $21,900) exactly. Asian manufacturers like Panasonic have been offered at significantly lower prices for some time now – Richter & Frenzel seems to be a strong wholesaler supporting many contractors who want to move away from the overpriced (German) systems.
P.S. The Asian suppliers currently have delivery times of 2 to 5 working days. New models come directly with propane as the refrigerant.
That’s nonsense. Far too long lead time. Many companies now only have lead times of weeks, not years. Heat pump manufacturers are partially on short-time work because the initial hype has died down due to the excessive margins charged by the companies. At the same time, production capacities are being expanded endlessly. Either look for installation by mid-2027 so you are ready for winter or schedule it for winter 2027/28 so the new heating system can be installed after the heating season.
I know you have a small older building. But I didn’t expect such small floors.Thanks for the note about the lead times. I have to admit I’m a bit biased here. For the construction project in 2023, I had everything sorted with plumbing at the end of 2022, commissioned in January 2023, and completion was at the end of December 2023... because they were so overloaded. And that was just underfloor heating and solar thermal. Does the €20,000 (about $22,000) before subsidies refer to both heat pump AND photovoltaic system, or just the heat pump?
Yes, the house is really small. But it suits us. In the past, several families lived in houses like this, which is hard to imagine today. And the pigs in the basement too!
Winniefred1 Mar 2024 11:41Nida35a schrieb:
Heat pumps become more affordable once the subsidies are removed.
There simply aren’t enough customers for 50,000 euros. The online price is just a guideline; a price three times higher is not justified (but the Q7 still has to be paid monthly, lol). dertill schrieb:
Are you handy?
But if I remember correctly, that wasn’t really the case for you.
Technically and in terms of price-performance, I can recommend the Panasonic Aquarea “Geisha.” The new “L” generation is a hydrosplit system using propane (R290) as refrigerant and now comes in a discreet black design and quieter operation:
The outdoor unit contains the refrigeration cycle and heat exchanger – only supply and return water connect there, plus power, of course;
The indoor unit has a 3-way valve for domestic hot water production and all other components, including a new hot water tank installed right below inside the unit, making it truly plug and play. No German manufacturer can match that price, and the installation is very well thought out.
By the way, Panasonic produces most heat pumps and compressors worldwide, and this series is very mature, with excellent specifications both on paper and in real life.
No, I don’t receive anything from Panasonic. I have seen it in operation with data monitoring at two acquaintances (generations H and J), and my own generation J system (since propane is not allowed at the installation site) will be installed this summer. For my mother-in-law, the L generation will be installed next year.
Price, if you don’t replace radiators:
Material including everything (Panasonic combination indoor module + outdoor unit 5 kW) is around 6,500 euros (about 8,000 euros including VAT).
You can do the base and gravel bed yourself, and
for installation, realistically two people for a maximum of two days: 2*2*8*100 euros = 3,200 euros (in your case, without radiator replacement),
plus one day for the electrician: 1,000 euros,
planning and construction supervision including commissioning and explanation by an energy efficiency expert (EEE) or another competent person, 3 days = 3,000 euros.
That totals about 15,000 euros.
But for the boss’s Mercedes/Porsche, add another 5,000 euros on top, and then subsidies decrease.
You get subsidies if the installation is done by a professional company (possibly supervised by an EEE): 30% base, +5% for propane, +20% if your gas heating is 20 years or older. So 35–55% or even more if your household’s average taxable income in the two calendar years before the year prior to application (i.e., 2021/2022) was under 40,000 euros (as shown on your tax assessment).
The most important thing for the conversion: eliminate everything that can be removed (buffer tanks, for example, and absolutely no combination buffers), no individual room control or at least keep 80% of the heating circuits/radiators always on, hydraulic balancing method B = room-specific heat load and adjusting flow rates, possibly enlarging radiators (the key is only the highest required temperature in the circuit – that must be reduced), no mixing valves (mixers mean water is too warm and could be cooler), and properly size the heat pump—in your case, without calculations: at most the smallest heat pump, i.e., 5 kW.
This can be done by a competent professional company (very rare), a good energy efficiency expert (sometimes), or an experienced planning company (usually fully booked and expensive). Always critically question the result until you fully understand it yourself. It’s actually the opposite with us; since 2017, we have done most of the work ourselves here. However, heating is exactly one of those trades we know nothing about and leave to the professionals. There are still old radiators in the two children’s rooms, which could certainly be replaced painlessly. Our income is well above 40,000 euros, and the gas heating system is currently 14 years old or will be next month. Thanks also for the other useful explanations.
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nordanney1 Mar 2024 11:57Winniefred schrieb:
Does the 20,000 before subsidies apply to both the heat pump AND the photovoltaic system, or just the heat pump? From the contractor’s perspective, of course, just the heat pump. Then there's the photovoltaic system depending on size and whether it includes a battery. But that one isn’t subsidized anyway.
Winniefred schrieb:
There are still old radiators in the two children's rooms; they could definitely be replaced without much hassle. Yep, install 33mm (1.3 inches) pipes for a total of 500€ (?), and that’s it.
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