ᐅ Consultation and Planning for a Black Forest House Using Post-and-Plank Construction Method
Created on: 5 Dec 2013 13:54
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YoogiHello everyone,
I have been reading this forum for some time and have already picked up some valuable tips. First of all, many thanks to everyone who contributes so actively and with such high quality.
I am planning to build a house myself in the near future. I would like to have a type of Black Forest house constructed using post-and-beam panel construction.
I already had an initial non-binding conversation with a potential general contractor (GC) to see if this would be financially feasible for me. He gave me a rough estimate of 2100 €/sqm (square meters) from the top of the foundation slab or basement. This includes a level of finishing that you would be happy with. Additionally, there is a basement, which I roughly estimated at 60,000 euros, and a plot of land for about 100,000 euros. That makes 315,000 euros for 150 sqm (sqm) of living space (without basement) + 60,000 + 100,000 + 30,000 (contingency) = 505,000 euros.
Since this amount is not insignificant for me and I am not a construction professional, I need help with carrying out this project. As an experienced project manager, I know that with a large budget you can get either high quality or a lot of poor work. Since the negotiation partners on the GC side probably spend all day planning construction projects, I don’t consider myself a competent negotiator in this regard.
However, since it’s not only about negotiating with the GC but also about coordinating “where exactly am I allowed to build such a house,” I am more interested in comprehensive advice. I would like to keep this consulting separate from the actual construction work to avoid conflicts of interest. For example, I see tasks such as reviewing the scope of work for completeness and plausibility or advising me during inspections (and in a sense being liable for this advice).
Who is qualified for such a role? Would that be an architect, a structural engineer, or does it have to be a sworn expert? Do you think my approach is overly cautious, excessive, or appropriate?
Thank you very much for your suggestions.
Jörg
P.S. Is it always this time-consuming to write a post? Due to the constant automatic saving, you can only type very, very slowly. For this entry, I spent 30 minutes typing and waiting.
I have been reading this forum for some time and have already picked up some valuable tips. First of all, many thanks to everyone who contributes so actively and with such high quality.
I am planning to build a house myself in the near future. I would like to have a type of Black Forest house constructed using post-and-beam panel construction.
I already had an initial non-binding conversation with a potential general contractor (GC) to see if this would be financially feasible for me. He gave me a rough estimate of 2100 €/sqm (square meters) from the top of the foundation slab or basement. This includes a level of finishing that you would be happy with. Additionally, there is a basement, which I roughly estimated at 60,000 euros, and a plot of land for about 100,000 euros. That makes 315,000 euros for 150 sqm (sqm) of living space (without basement) + 60,000 + 100,000 + 30,000 (contingency) = 505,000 euros.
Since this amount is not insignificant for me and I am not a construction professional, I need help with carrying out this project. As an experienced project manager, I know that with a large budget you can get either high quality or a lot of poor work. Since the negotiation partners on the GC side probably spend all day planning construction projects, I don’t consider myself a competent negotiator in this regard.
However, since it’s not only about negotiating with the GC but also about coordinating “where exactly am I allowed to build such a house,” I am more interested in comprehensive advice. I would like to keep this consulting separate from the actual construction work to avoid conflicts of interest. For example, I see tasks such as reviewing the scope of work for completeness and plausibility or advising me during inspections (and in a sense being liable for this advice).
Who is qualified for such a role? Would that be an architect, a structural engineer, or does it have to be a sworn expert? Do you think my approach is overly cautious, excessive, or appropriate?
Thank you very much for your suggestions.
Jörg
P.S. Is it always this time-consuming to write a post? Due to the constant automatic saving, you can only type very, very slowly. For this entry, I spent 30 minutes typing and waiting.
B
Bauexperte6 Dec 2013 10:48Hello Jörg,
Regards, Bauexperte
Yoogi schrieb:I would almost say that this price is set too low; a half-hipped roof is not that cheap, especially when it is built as low-slung as is typical for this house type.
An initial non-binding discussion with a potential general contractor was already held to see if such a project is financially feasible for me in principle. He mentioned a rough guideline price of 2100 €/sqm (2100 €/sq ft) starting from the top edge of the ground slab or basement.
Yoogi schrieb:If I were you, I would separate these roles – one partner for reviewing construction documents and contracts (this could be a lawyer or an association like a private builders’ association or builders’ protection organization) and another partner for independent construction supervision. The latter should be someone familiar with the specific characteristics of a Black Forest house; in Bavaria, for example, this could even be the TÜV. You will certainly find suitable candidates via the Association of Independent Experts. Choose two or three near you and have conversations with them; your intellect and gut feeling will help you select the right expert for your needs. 😉
Since it is not only about negotiating with the general contractor but also about clarifying “Where am I even allowed to build such a house,” I am more interested in comprehensive advice. I would like to separate this consulting from the actual “execution” (the construction itself), to avoid conflicts of interest. For example, I see the task also including reviewing the scope of work for completeness and plausibility or providing advice during inspections (and in a certain way being liable for this).
Who is qualified for such a task? Is it an architect, a civil engineer, or does it have to be a sworn expert? Do you consider my approach to be overly cautious, exaggerated, or appropriate?
Yoogi schrieb:No, then something is wrong with your settings, or your browser is not suitable for this forum.
PS: Is it always like this that it takes so long to write a post? Because of constant autosaving, you can only type veerrryy slowly. I spent 30 minutes typing/waiting for this entry.
Regards, Bauexperte
Hello Building Expert,
Thank you very much for your response.
Regarding costs: I mentioned them to show that I am thinking about professional support early on. As you can see, I am considering the "overall framework" but need help with the details. Therefore, thanks again for pointing out that €2100 per square meter (approximately $210 per square foot) might be a bit tight for the planned project. Fortunately (and honestly), the general contractor also told me that a "Black Forest house" is not exactly a cheap project, and since I will likely talk to multiple suppliers, I should be careful not to compare apples to oranges with the offers. In particular, he mentioned the half-hip roof (called “Krüppelwalmdach” in German), as it is not really cheap and is a significant cost factor in a quote.
Regarding the approach:
I have a question about your suggested three-part division (assessment, support, execution). In the initial meeting with the general contractor, they asked whether I intend to use a KfW loan (government-subsidized energy-efficient construction loan). This question was because they face an energy regulation issue with Black Forest houses (especially with the half-hip roof). (I’m not sure if I used the right term, but basically, for the KfW loan certain criteria need to be met, which they can meet, but only with "disproportionate" additional effort.) Because of the large roof, there is apparently not enough sunlight exposure on the house, so the heating system for the KfW loan has to be designed differently to meet their criteria (for example, installing a photovoltaic system on the roof), which will not really be needed afterward. (This must be somehow related to the primary energy demand calculation.) I’m not asking you now to explain whether what he says is accurate, since you are volunteering on this forum (but if you want or can say something, I’m happy to listen). Can the Association of Private Homeowners verify such statements and confirm their accuracy, or do they focus more on other topics?
Since I will not be building in Bavaria (sorry, I forgot to mention that), but 300 km (about 186 miles) away in Southern Baden, I will contact the local representative of the Association of Private Homeowners there.
Thank you very much for your support.
Thank you again for the tip.
Thank you very much for your response.
Regarding costs: I mentioned them to show that I am thinking about professional support early on. As you can see, I am considering the "overall framework" but need help with the details. Therefore, thanks again for pointing out that €2100 per square meter (approximately $210 per square foot) might be a bit tight for the planned project. Fortunately (and honestly), the general contractor also told me that a "Black Forest house" is not exactly a cheap project, and since I will likely talk to multiple suppliers, I should be careful not to compare apples to oranges with the offers. In particular, he mentioned the half-hip roof (called “Krüppelwalmdach” in German), as it is not really cheap and is a significant cost factor in a quote.
Regarding the approach:
I have a question about your suggested three-part division (assessment, support, execution). In the initial meeting with the general contractor, they asked whether I intend to use a KfW loan (government-subsidized energy-efficient construction loan). This question was because they face an energy regulation issue with Black Forest houses (especially with the half-hip roof). (I’m not sure if I used the right term, but basically, for the KfW loan certain criteria need to be met, which they can meet, but only with "disproportionate" additional effort.) Because of the large roof, there is apparently not enough sunlight exposure on the house, so the heating system for the KfW loan has to be designed differently to meet their criteria (for example, installing a photovoltaic system on the roof), which will not really be needed afterward. (This must be somehow related to the primary energy demand calculation.) I’m not asking you now to explain whether what he says is accurate, since you are volunteering on this forum (but if you want or can say something, I’m happy to listen). Can the Association of Private Homeowners verify such statements and confirm their accuracy, or do they focus more on other topics?
Since I will not be building in Bavaria (sorry, I forgot to mention that), but 300 km (about 186 miles) away in Southern Baden, I will contact the local representative of the Association of Private Homeowners there.
Thank you very much for your support.
Thank you again for the tip.
B
Bauexperte6 Dec 2013 14:08Hello,
A "Black Forest house" is a single-family home that is certainly not built every day. Therefore, it is advisable to seek advice from people who are up to date on the subject. This is not my daily business either; I have never built a comparable house. However, I agree with this general contractor because I have encountered similar issues with houses featuring a half-hipped roof. In one point, though, I would like to disagree with him—a photovoltaic system is not completely useless if it is adjusted to the expected electricity consumption, and this adjustment is sufficient to achieve the KfW 70 status. Storage media are still very expensive and, from my subjective point of view, not really recommended due to their materials.
The obvious next step, again from my point of view, would be a conversation with an independent mortgage broker you trust. Even though KfW loans are quite affordable, they are not always the best option. Conventional loan types are often attractive alternatives with better long-term options. A well-trained mortgage broker will bring this up on their own. If your personal circumstances mean that KfW 70 (as part of the loan) turns out to be uninteresting, the question of additional effort is also resolved. That does not mean you should not aim for a durable and energy-efficient house—but you can also "over-invest"; I still do not see the real purpose of this exercise, since houses based on the Energy Saving Ordinance are by no means fundamentally worse alternatives.
Best regards, Bauexperte
Yoogi schrieb:There are not only "bad apples" in our industry, even though that impression often arises on the HBF forum 😀
Fortunately (because honestly), the general contractor also told me that a "Black Forest house" is not exactly a cheap project, and since I will probably talk to several providers, I should be careful not to compare apples and oranges with the offers. He specifically mentioned the half-hipped roof, as it is not really cheap and is a significant cost driver in a quote.
Yoogi schrieb:One would think this association can do that... but is that really the case?
In the initial conversation with the general contractor, he asked if I wanted to use a KfW loan. He wanted to know this because they have a problem with thermal regulations with the Black Forest houses (especially the half-hipped roof). (I don’t know if I used the right term, but he definitely said that for the KfW loan certain criteria must be met, which they can meet but only with a "disproportionate" additional effort). Because of the large roof, apparently there is not enough sunlight on the house, so the heating system has to be designed differently just to meet the KfW loan criteria (for example, with a photovoltaic system on the roof), which is then not really needed. (This must somehow be related to primary energy demand). I don’t want you to explain whether what he says is true, after all you are here voluntarily in the forum (but if you want or can say something, I’d be happy to listen), but can the Association of Private Homeowners check such statements and confirm if they are true, or do they rather deal with other topics?
A "Black Forest house" is a single-family home that is certainly not built every day. Therefore, it is advisable to seek advice from people who are up to date on the subject. This is not my daily business either; I have never built a comparable house. However, I agree with this general contractor because I have encountered similar issues with houses featuring a half-hipped roof. In one point, though, I would like to disagree with him—a photovoltaic system is not completely useless if it is adjusted to the expected electricity consumption, and this adjustment is sufficient to achieve the KfW 70 status. Storage media are still very expensive and, from my subjective point of view, not really recommended due to their materials.
The obvious next step, again from my point of view, would be a conversation with an independent mortgage broker you trust. Even though KfW loans are quite affordable, they are not always the best option. Conventional loan types are often attractive alternatives with better long-term options. A well-trained mortgage broker will bring this up on their own. If your personal circumstances mean that KfW 70 (as part of the loan) turns out to be uninteresting, the question of additional effort is also resolved. That does not mean you should not aim for a durable and energy-efficient house—but you can also "over-invest"; I still do not see the real purpose of this exercise, since houses based on the Energy Saving Ordinance are by no means fundamentally worse alternatives.
Best regards, Bauexperte
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