ᐅ Is the architect’s quote complete? Is the price reasonable?
Created on: 22 Jun 2020 23:21
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NeuerBauherr
Hello everyone,
we have been following the forum for some time now and are looking forward to your experiences, tips, and advice.
We are planning to build our dream home in 2021 and have already had discussions with several companies (prefabricated house suppliers, general contractors, architect). Since we would like to plan with an architect (design phases 1-4), we now have a concrete offer but are not sure if it really covers everything, especially concerning the costs.
We have created a rough floor plan/sketch ourselves and provided it to the architect.
Facts
Project: Single-family house + double garage (solid construction) – nothing fancy or exclusive...
Location: about 100km (60 miles) from Munich, should be in Lower Bavaria
Construction costs: approx. 400-450k excluding exterior work & additional construction costs
Scope of services by the architect
1. Building regulations
- Ordering site plan, conversion, etc.
- Clarifying framework conditions, including building size, heritage protection, local regulations, etc.
2. Preparation of preliminary and design drafts for about 360sqm (3880 sq ft) gross floor area (GFA)
3. Approval planning
- Preparation of approval drawings with corresponding entries (section, facade, drawing title block, site plan, floor plans, etc.)
- Preparation of necessary forms (building description, building permit/planning permission application, parking space certification)
- Calculations (floor area ratio, site coverage ratio, GFA, living space, cubic volume, and cost estimate)
- Cover letter to obtain neighbors’ signatures
- A detailed cost estimate according to DIN 276 is not included; the cost estimate is prepared based on cubic meters or square meter prices according to the BKI.
Energy consultant, fire safety consultant, and structural engineer must be commissioned separately according to the offer.
The offer amounts to 11,000 net plus VAT, based on HOAI. Incidental costs such as plan pauses, copies, and site plans will be reviewed and passed on.
I have the feeling that something might still be missing, or does this really cover design phases 1-4 to the extent that one can approach general contractors to request bids afterward? I often read about shop drawings, which are not mentioned in the offer. The same applies to the quantity survey, or have I misunderstood something?
Overall, we have a good feeling about the architect (the chemistry is right, etc.), but 11,000 net is quite a bit and differs from what we had planned (max. 10,000 including VAT). Since some prices mentioned are significantly different, we want to ask again to be 100% sure.
What are your opinions on this? We look forward to a lively discussion.
Best regards from the Bavarian countryside
we have been following the forum for some time now and are looking forward to your experiences, tips, and advice.
We are planning to build our dream home in 2021 and have already had discussions with several companies (prefabricated house suppliers, general contractors, architect). Since we would like to plan with an architect (design phases 1-4), we now have a concrete offer but are not sure if it really covers everything, especially concerning the costs.
We have created a rough floor plan/sketch ourselves and provided it to the architect.
Facts
Project: Single-family house + double garage (solid construction) – nothing fancy or exclusive...
Location: about 100km (60 miles) from Munich, should be in Lower Bavaria
Construction costs: approx. 400-450k excluding exterior work & additional construction costs
Scope of services by the architect
1. Building regulations
- Ordering site plan, conversion, etc.
- Clarifying framework conditions, including building size, heritage protection, local regulations, etc.
2. Preparation of preliminary and design drafts for about 360sqm (3880 sq ft) gross floor area (GFA)
3. Approval planning
- Preparation of approval drawings with corresponding entries (section, facade, drawing title block, site plan, floor plans, etc.)
- Preparation of necessary forms (building description, building permit/planning permission application, parking space certification)
- Calculations (floor area ratio, site coverage ratio, GFA, living space, cubic volume, and cost estimate)
- Cover letter to obtain neighbors’ signatures
- A detailed cost estimate according to DIN 276 is not included; the cost estimate is prepared based on cubic meters or square meter prices according to the BKI.
Energy consultant, fire safety consultant, and structural engineer must be commissioned separately according to the offer.
The offer amounts to 11,000 net plus VAT, based on HOAI. Incidental costs such as plan pauses, copies, and site plans will be reviewed and passed on.
I have the feeling that something might still be missing, or does this really cover design phases 1-4 to the extent that one can approach general contractors to request bids afterward? I often read about shop drawings, which are not mentioned in the offer. The same applies to the quantity survey, or have I misunderstood something?
Overall, we have a good feeling about the architect (the chemistry is right, etc.), but 11,000 net is quite a bit and differs from what we had planned (max. 10,000 including VAT). Since some prices mentioned are significantly different, we want to ask again to be 100% sure.
What are your opinions on this? We look forward to a lively discussion.
Best regards from the Bavarian countryside
Malunga schrieb:
So, phases 1-4 would be around €20,000 (about $22,000)!
And unfortunately, that doesn't mean it's a star architect. Either they charge the highest fee rate or try to assign you to a different fee zone...
In my opinion, €11,000 (about $12,000) is reasonable for an acceptable result—provided the building permit / planning permission is granted. You should also read what the original poster wrote. Here, only phases 2 and 4 are being offered, not phases 1-4.
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NeuerBauherr23 Jun 2020 14:13Lumpi_LE schrieb:
It's understandably difficult for you to decide whom or what to believe here, so here is a brief explanation:
You can search for HOAI calculators online and read up a bit; these usually also explain the content of the service phases.
You will find that your offer roughly covers service phase 2 and service phase 4.
If you enter this into the calculator, you’ll get about €4300 net fee. A top architect wouldn’t even lift a finger for that; a run-of-the-mill signature guy will do it for €2000. So, for context: at that price, you can assume it’s a well-known architect doing something special for you—but not a superstar.
Regarding your house costs: 360 gross floor area (BGF) is about 280 m² (3014 sq ft) of living space—this costs at least €600,000 in Southern Bavaria for a standard house. A house where service phase 2 costs €10,000 will probably cost seven figures. Yes, the more posts there are, the more opinions, and the more confusing the whole situation becomes for us… Regarding the HOAI calculator, I have already done some rough calculations with various prices, but the question always remains how high the eligible costs really are, because that is ultimately what matters.
It is definitely not a star architect or a renowned architect (at least not known to me); we don’t want anything extravagant, just a simple single-family home without much fuss.
Regarding the living space and gross floor area… well, that is a bit unclear. We had roughly calculated about 140 m² (1507 sq ft) on the ground floor and about 125 m² (1345 sq ft) on the first floor. There will be no basement built as it would exceed the budget.
We will have to do a lot of work ourselves to keep it affordable, so at the current stage we hope not to exceed €600,000. Also, some parts (e.g., the upper floor) will be done step-by-step.
Conclusion… we will try to find one or two general contractors (GCs) to get their price estimates, so we can better judge the architect’s offer (by the way, a prefab house provider quoted €8700 net for architectural services… but we just don’t want a prefab house).
We’ll keep you updated!
For what reason are design phases 1 and 3 omitted, transferring all the risk to the client, even though planning permission / building permit may not yet be available for phase 4?
And on what basis is a contractor supposed to submit a bid, when execution is not part of phases 1 to 4? The same applies to structural calculations or thermal insulation verification...
And on what basis is a contractor supposed to submit a bid, when execution is not part of phases 1 to 4? The same applies to structural calculations or thermal insulation verification...
An architect often needs even more creativity when reworking an amateur’s plan instead of developing an original concept. You really need an architect "instead of just a rubber stamp" when the residents and/or the property and/or the zoning regulations have special requirements that cannot be met with the standard design "Vanessa 135" from the general contractor (GC). The best way to waste the architect’s fee is to downgrade them to just a drafter and not have them plan the execution and oversee construction. The “site manager” of the GC is called that, but has a largely different role. A tender process only makes sense if it provides a binding and uniform response format; otherwise, you inevitably end up comparing apples and oranges. The choice between architect or GC is fundamentally the wrong approach— a reasonable architect includes the GC in the tender process if the client does not prevent it.
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
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NeuerBauherr23 Jun 2020 17:3311ant schrieb:
An architect actually needs more creativity, not less, when asked to rework a layperson’s plan instead of developing their own concept. You need an architect “instead of a rubber-stamp official” when the residents and/or the property and/or the building permit / planning permission have special requirements that cannot be met with a standard design like the “Vanessa 135” concept from the general contractor (GC). The best way to waste the architect’s fee is to downgrade them to just a draftsman and not have them plan and supervise the construction as well. The “site manager” of the GC is just called that but has a largely different role. And a tender process only makes sense if it specifies a binding, uniform response format; otherwise, you inevitably end up comparing apples and oranges. Architect or GC is basically a wrong approach; a sensible architect includes the GC in the tender process, unless the client prevents it.Please review the posts again... The architect does not want to proceed beyond design phase 4 (LP-4), so it’s not due to us, quite the opposite.
As mentioned, we will now select two more GCs and see what they say... After that, we will decide how to proceed.
Please refrain from posting further comments not related to the questions asked, as I feel the discussion is drifting far from the original topic.
Thank you & regards
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