Our construction supervisor (BU) is very honest, and we, as well as others, trust him a lot.
However, he is not a fan of ventilation systems.
Here are the prices he quoted. Are there
1. Solutions that are more integrated into the wall or similar, to avoid additional height increases, and
2. Is the price reasonable?
Total area is 187 sqm (2013 sq ft), including about 40 sqm (430 sq ft) of an extension. The rest is spread over two levels in a town villa style.
There is a ceiling opening of about 9 sqm (97 sq ft) to the first floor, which is not included in the 187 sqm (2013 sq ft).
Attached is the text from the BU.
Pluggit Avent fresh air unit with heat recovery included.
Aluminum cross counterflow heat exchanger
Including air ducts, supply and exhaust air outlets, silencers, distributor, cover grilles in standard white plastic, supply and install 14,192.58 €
Blower door test mandatory when installing ventilation system 476.00 €
Increase of total floor construction height from 14 cm (5.5 inches) to 18 cm (7 inches) on the upper floor
By adding 3 cm (1.2 inches) more styrofoam insulation 2,988.97 €
Enthalpy exchanger and summer bypass
No costs yet
However, he is not a fan of ventilation systems.
Here are the prices he quoted. Are there
1. Solutions that are more integrated into the wall or similar, to avoid additional height increases, and
2. Is the price reasonable?
Total area is 187 sqm (2013 sq ft), including about 40 sqm (430 sq ft) of an extension. The rest is spread over two levels in a town villa style.
There is a ceiling opening of about 9 sqm (97 sq ft) to the first floor, which is not included in the 187 sqm (2013 sq ft).
Attached is the text from the BU.
Pluggit Avent fresh air unit with heat recovery included.
Aluminum cross counterflow heat exchanger
Including air ducts, supply and exhaust air outlets, silencers, distributor, cover grilles in standard white plastic, supply and install 14,192.58 €
Blower door test mandatory when installing ventilation system 476.00 €
Increase of total floor construction height from 14 cm (5.5 inches) to 18 cm (7 inches) on the upper floor
By adding 3 cm (1.2 inches) more styrofoam insulation 2,988.97 €
Enthalpy exchanger and summer bypass
No costs yet
M
mariano.dechow11 Dec 2023 09:17Thank you all for so much input.
We informed the construction manager that we will choose a ventilation system.
I always wanted one, but there are many who don’t have one and don’t get mold.
We are building according to the Building Energy Act.
And $20,000 is a lot for ventilation. But I’m also really worried about mold and related issues.
I hope it was the right decision to get one. It will most likely be a pluggit Avent.
We informed the construction manager that we will choose a ventilation system.
I always wanted one, but there are many who don’t have one and don’t get mold.
We are building according to the Building Energy Act.
And $20,000 is a lot for ventilation. But I’m also really worried about mold and related issues.
I hope it was the right decision to get one. It will most likely be a pluggit Avent.
HeimatBauer schrieb:
In my enthusiasm for the daily improved quality of life since building the new house, I initially tried to share this benefit with others who are currently making building decisions. The main counterargument I encountered was usually a defensive “I have been ventilating like this with windows for 40 years; if it worked for that long, it can’t be wrong, so I’ll keep ventilating with windows because otherwise I’d have to admit I was wrong” – and that is not something I want or can argue against. That’s why even houses built in 2023, and probably as late as 2085, will still use Stone Age window ventilation. Because of that, even modern houses continue to waste energy unnecessarily through ventilation, while justifying it with a stubborn “gas is still cheap!!!111oneone” attitude, despite all evidence to the contrary. How much energy does a ventilation system actually save once you consider the extra living space needed for ductwork, as well as the system’s manufacturing, maintenance, and operation costs?
At some point, I calculated the cost of our hot water versus actual heat production. I believe the hot water was between 2 and 3 kWh per day (I’d have to check again). If that’s accurate, heating costs us less than 500€ per year. If a ventilation system might save about 30% more, that’s around 150€ or 450 kWh.
Just the interest on the higher loan taken out for the ventilation system exceeds that. Financially, it will never pay off. And whether even more kWh are consumed during the production of materials for building extensions and the system itself than the system saves is unknown.
From my perspective, a ventilation system is purely a comfort feature—allowing you to avoid manual ventilation and improve indoor air quality.
If you really want to address environmental concerns, everyone would need to build significantly smaller homes.
I find it amusing how people complain about rising construction costs and reminisce about how much better things were in the past, yet at the same time justify spending €15,000 to €20,000 (let’s say more) on something that saves 5 to 10 minutes of ventilation work each day. A robotic vacuum cleaner or lawnmower probably saves far more time for significantly less money.
Meanwhile, everyone rushes to the gym because they don’t get enough physical activity.
H
HeimatBauer11 Dec 2023 11:56If you had been following the relevant threads, you would have seen that I never joined the "oh my god, building is so expensive, we have to go back to the 1970s" chorus, but instead say "you get what you pay for."
By definition, it is both unnecessary and illogical to exchange heat along with the air. Both in summer and winter. The ventilation system automatically switches between the heat exchanger and bypass mode. I have perfect air quality 24/7, and to be honest, only since I got used to this have I really noticed how stuffy apartments with window vents often are. Just last week, my colleague asked me how I remove the condensation that always forms inside the windows—I just said, "What condensation?" When I return from vacation, nothing feels stuffy, no matter the floor. In summer, it stays cool inside and the mosquitoes stay out. If the neighbor plays loud and bad music, I couldn’t care less—my window is closed anyhow. I vacuum significantly less often because there is much less dust.
It would be news to me if a ventilation system excludes the use of a robotic lawn mower or vacuum cleaner. Is there a law about that? If so, please let me know, because I would break it. As mentioned, the vacuum robot has much less work thanks to the ventilation system.
All this can of course be dismissed, and in case of doubt, you get the equally illogical but omnipresent spin that manual labor is a free gym. By the same logic, you should replace stairs with rope ladders and also save on concrete.
I know both well enough and still own a house next door with Stone Age ventilation. Currently, one floor is unoccupied, and since I haven’t had the energy to drill a hole for the fan in the exterior wall, a window remains tilted open 24/7—energy-wise, completely nonsensical, but you can rationalize anything.
We can just close this topic here anyway; the original poster has chosen ventilation and thus energy efficiency, quality of life, and, as a bonus, the resale value of the house.
By definition, it is both unnecessary and illogical to exchange heat along with the air. Both in summer and winter. The ventilation system automatically switches between the heat exchanger and bypass mode. I have perfect air quality 24/7, and to be honest, only since I got used to this have I really noticed how stuffy apartments with window vents often are. Just last week, my colleague asked me how I remove the condensation that always forms inside the windows—I just said, "What condensation?" When I return from vacation, nothing feels stuffy, no matter the floor. In summer, it stays cool inside and the mosquitoes stay out. If the neighbor plays loud and bad music, I couldn’t care less—my window is closed anyhow. I vacuum significantly less often because there is much less dust.
It would be news to me if a ventilation system excludes the use of a robotic lawn mower or vacuum cleaner. Is there a law about that? If so, please let me know, because I would break it. As mentioned, the vacuum robot has much less work thanks to the ventilation system.
All this can of course be dismissed, and in case of doubt, you get the equally illogical but omnipresent spin that manual labor is a free gym. By the same logic, you should replace stairs with rope ladders and also save on concrete.
I know both well enough and still own a house next door with Stone Age ventilation. Currently, one floor is unoccupied, and since I haven’t had the energy to drill a hole for the fan in the exterior wall, a window remains tilted open 24/7—energy-wise, completely nonsensical, but you can rationalize anything.
We can just close this topic here anyway; the original poster has chosen ventilation and thus energy efficiency, quality of life, and, as a bonus, the resale value of the house.
H
HeimatBauer11 Dec 2023 12:58In hindsight, I must revise my term "Stone Age ventilation" and sincerely apologize for it.
As is well known, people in our regions learned in the early Middle Ages that smoke and heat from a fire could be separated. This, of course, led to a significant increase in construction costs even back then – the fact that hardly any complaints about this survive today is probably only due to the absence of internet forums at that time. Of course, it was only in hindsight that people realized this discovery was a key driver for a sudden rise in quality of life and life expectancy.
So if we place the separation of poor air and heat around the early Middle Ages (roughly 500–1000), then the (not very effective but at least problem-acknowledging) window rabbet ventilation corresponds more to antiquity, while ventilation by tilting windows dates back to the Bronze Age. At least that much.
As is well known, people in our regions learned in the early Middle Ages that smoke and heat from a fire could be separated. This, of course, led to a significant increase in construction costs even back then – the fact that hardly any complaints about this survive today is probably only due to the absence of internet forums at that time. Of course, it was only in hindsight that people realized this discovery was a key driver for a sudden rise in quality of life and life expectancy.
So if we place the separation of poor air and heat around the early Middle Ages (roughly 500–1000), then the (not very effective but at least problem-acknowledging) window rabbet ventilation corresponds more to antiquity, while ventilation by tilting windows dates back to the Bronze Age. At least that much.
Houses built in the 2000s weren’t insulated as well as ours are now. We built at the same time @Musketier
Yes, but honestly: one minute is not ventilation, it’s just opening a window.
Advice from the Federal Environment Agency:
In cold seasons, depending on temperature and wind, ventilating 2-3 times a day for about 5 minutes per room with one or more fully open windows is sufficient for proper ventilation.
That sounds cute, and I’m sure you can smile about it, but this is exactly what you want to avoid. Not that the child is chatting, but that energy escapes uncontrollably from the house, causing the need to reheat.
And yes, it’s hard, and we behave the same ourselves, but this is one of the no-gos.
If my husband leaves the door open, I’ll just hang a key on the outside and close it. I’d also make sure the child doesn’t linger too long ;-) because it’s not necessary.
If it works well for you, that’s fine. However, I often read in other forums that without a ventilation concept, mold is now developing in the house. That’s where you can’t generalize by saying “it works fine without it for us.” There are plenty of people who don’t want or can’t ventilate regularly, and whose homes didn’t stay completely dry throughout construction.
I can only speak of energy for life. You don’t have to worry about it, you can get ready in the morning and walk out the door without any hassle, and in the evening too, without letting cold air in if you don’t want to.
That was my argument about the missing electrical operation of my roller shutters. You have to balance what extras you want versus what is built as standard. But I do understand your last point about construction costs: Everyone complains, yet they install nice-to-haves worth about €50,000 when you include the extra square meters for the pantry, dressing room, and kids’ bathroom.
Musketier schrieb:
Usually, ventilation happens in passing
Musketier schrieb:
but I never need more than a minute to open and close the windows.
Yes, but honestly: one minute is not ventilation, it’s just opening a window.
Advice from the Federal Environment Agency:
In cold seasons, depending on temperature and wind, ventilating 2-3 times a day for about 5 minutes per room with one or more fully open windows is sufficient for proper ventilation.
Musketier schrieb:
our uncontrolled ventilation system called child is chatting again for a long time by the open door with the neighbor’s kid, etc.
That sounds cute, and I’m sure you can smile about it, but this is exactly what you want to avoid. Not that the child is chatting, but that energy escapes uncontrollably from the house, causing the need to reheat.
And yes, it’s hard, and we behave the same ourselves, but this is one of the no-gos.
If my husband leaves the door open, I’ll just hang a key on the outside and close it. I’d also make sure the child doesn’t linger too long ;-) because it’s not necessary.
If it works well for you, that’s fine. However, I often read in other forums that without a ventilation concept, mold is now developing in the house. That’s where you can’t generalize by saying “it works fine without it for us.” There are plenty of people who don’t want or can’t ventilate regularly, and whose homes didn’t stay completely dry throughout construction.
Musketier schrieb:
How much energy does the ventilation system really save?
I can only speak of energy for life. You don’t have to worry about it, you can get ready in the morning and walk out the door without any hassle, and in the evening too, without letting cold air in if you don’t want to.
Musketier schrieb:
In return, everyone runs to the gym because they don’t move enough.
That was my argument about the missing electrical operation of my roller shutters. You have to balance what extras you want versus what is built as standard. But I do understand your last point about construction costs: Everyone complains, yet they install nice-to-haves worth about €50,000 when you include the extra square meters for the pantry, dressing room, and kids’ bathroom.
HeimatBauer schrieb:
If you had been following the relevant threads, you would have seen that I never joined the "oh my gosh, building is so expensive, we must go back to the 1970s" chorus but instead said "you get what you pay for."
...
That a ventilation system excludes the use of a robotic lawn mower or vacuum cleaner is news to me— is there a regulation about that? If so, please let me know, because I’d be violating it.
Those who have, can... but if the original poster (OP) is already at his financial limit, then he has to make choices.
Either he forgoes other comforts or accepts longer loan terms, which at current interest rates leads to a significantly different total cost. What starts as 20,000 over the term can easily become 40,000 or more.
And if he can no longer afford it, he can sell his quality home and look for an apartment with a ventilation system on the rental or buying market.
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