Hello,
we have paid an invoice of €11,900 for our architect, who is also handling the building permit (planning permission). The invoice included the complete finalization of the plans, multiple copies of the building application, all visits to the city and building offices, consultations with the structural engineer and signatures, etc., as well as three plan revisions (because the house was supposed to be enlarged).
Is this within the normal range? Was the invoice excessive?
I would appreciate your assessments.
we have paid an invoice of €11,900 for our architect, who is also handling the building permit (planning permission). The invoice included the complete finalization of the plans, multiple copies of the building application, all visits to the city and building offices, consultations with the structural engineer and signatures, etc., as well as three plan revisions (because the house was supposed to be enlarged).
Is this within the normal range? Was the invoice excessive?
I would appreciate your assessments.
Hello NUISETTE,
to answer your question, a few more details are needed.
Have you signed a contract with the architect, and were any installment payments agreed upon? At least, you must have discussed the architect’s fee.
How large is your house planned to be? In other words, can you provide an estimated total construction cost?
From what you’ve described, it sounds like the invoice in question is a partial payment invoice for 10,000 euros plus VAT. Is that correct?
You mention “complete finalization of the plans.” Does the invoice also include the construction drawings at a scale of 1:50 and any detailed plans for the construction site?
I assume that the structural engineer’s fee is not included in this.
To what extent were the plans revised three times? Were these minor adjustments to meet your desired house size, or did the architect have to design entirely new houses at your request? The architect likely first consulted you about your building wishes, ideas, and financial framework, and then prepared at least a preliminary design.
It appears to me that this partial payment invoice is simply to bill for work already completed. This is generally reasonable. To assess the amount, the information mentioned above would be necessary.
With this information, I could evaluate the fee based on the HOAI (Official Scale of Fees for Services by Architects and Engineers). To conduct a truly precise review, it would be necessary to check whether all required services were actually provided in the invoiced project phases. However, I would initially assume that this is the case.
to answer your question, a few more details are needed.
Have you signed a contract with the architect, and were any installment payments agreed upon? At least, you must have discussed the architect’s fee.
How large is your house planned to be? In other words, can you provide an estimated total construction cost?
From what you’ve described, it sounds like the invoice in question is a partial payment invoice for 10,000 euros plus VAT. Is that correct?
You mention “complete finalization of the plans.” Does the invoice also include the construction drawings at a scale of 1:50 and any detailed plans for the construction site?
I assume that the structural engineer’s fee is not included in this.
To what extent were the plans revised three times? Were these minor adjustments to meet your desired house size, or did the architect have to design entirely new houses at your request? The architect likely first consulted you about your building wishes, ideas, and financial framework, and then prepared at least a preliminary design.
It appears to me that this partial payment invoice is simply to bill for work already completed. This is generally reasonable. To assess the amount, the information mentioned above would be necessary.
With this information, I could evaluate the fee based on the HOAI (Official Scale of Fees for Services by Architects and Engineers). To conduct a truly precise review, it would be necessary to check whether all required services were actually provided in the invoiced project phases. However, I would initially assume that this is the case.
Hello Danton,
I will try to answer as best as I can. However, the structural engineer was included. (Since his signature was on the building permit / planning permission and he is therefore liable to some extent, his work at this stage is considered complete.)
First of all: You are dealing here with a complete layperson, and I cannot reproduce all the architect’s explanations in detail. The fact is, contractually we have NOTHING with the architect yet. We have been working on the house planning for about half a year, and just the hours he spent with us justify his invoice. (His staff also worked on it.) Another fact is that we have received a rough construction cost estimate; the detailed breakdown (turnkey) will be delivered this week. The house’s value is about 320,000 euros (for the house only, solid construction, building volume 930 m³ (33,000 ft³)). The cost breakdown we will get this week includes ALL construction/trade services, including the architect’s fees (which he intends to deduct there again).
The relatively high costs are due to the fact that we are planning a hillside construction. The changes were requested by us, but they were not completely new plans in the sense of a new house each time. Only walls, dimensions, and structural engineer consultations became necessary again. (For example, he assumed that an extension would not necessarily require shifting the load-bearing basement wall, but according to the structural engineer, this ultimately had to happen, and the assumed extra costs were again exceeded.)
It is really hard sometimes, as a layperson, to keep up with why something suddenly no longer works or why it requires much more effort to realize, and so on... Now I understand why people say, “building drives you crazy.”
I will try to answer as best as I can. However, the structural engineer was included. (Since his signature was on the building permit / planning permission and he is therefore liable to some extent, his work at this stage is considered complete.)
First of all: You are dealing here with a complete layperson, and I cannot reproduce all the architect’s explanations in detail. The fact is, contractually we have NOTHING with the architect yet. We have been working on the house planning for about half a year, and just the hours he spent with us justify his invoice. (His staff also worked on it.) Another fact is that we have received a rough construction cost estimate; the detailed breakdown (turnkey) will be delivered this week. The house’s value is about 320,000 euros (for the house only, solid construction, building volume 930 m³ (33,000 ft³)). The cost breakdown we will get this week includes ALL construction/trade services, including the architect’s fees (which he intends to deduct there again).
The relatively high costs are due to the fact that we are planning a hillside construction. The changes were requested by us, but they were not completely new plans in the sense of a new house each time. Only walls, dimensions, and structural engineer consultations became necessary again. (For example, he assumed that an extension would not necessarily require shifting the load-bearing basement wall, but according to the structural engineer, this ultimately had to happen, and the assumed extra costs were again exceeded.)
It is really hard sometimes, as a layperson, to keep up with why something suddenly no longer works or why it requires much more effort to realize, and so on... Now I understand why people say, “building drives you crazy.”
Hello NUISETTE,
With the structural engineer’s signature, I assume you are referring to the form "Declaration by the preparer of technical construction evidence" for the simplified approval process. This does not mean that the structural engineer’s work is completed. It only means that the evidence prepared by them complies with public building regulations and does not necessarily need to be reviewed by the building authorities. As a result, the client is also exempt from the respective review fee.
Therefore, I would expect the structural engineer to issue an invoice for the due fee after completing their services (structural safety verification including plans and lists, possibly an energy certificate, etc.).
If no written contract with the architect has yet been signed, it is likely that a contract has been agreed upon—albeit verbally—in accordance with the Building Code. In this case, the minimum fees of the HOAI (Official Scale of Fees for Services by Architects and Engineers in Germany) apply for the architect’s services.
Although construction costs vary regionally, I estimate here a value of €275 per cubic meter (m³) of enclosed space, considering, as you mentioned, that the site is on a slope and that at least part of the lower floor is probably usable for residential purposes.
This results in a total construction cost of (930 m³ x €275/m³ =) €255,750 gross.
The billable net construction cost is thus approximately €215,000.
According to §16 HOAI, Zone III, minimum rate, the architect’s fee for all basic services across all work phases amounts to €23,024.20 plus VAT.
As you describe, the architect has completed work phases 1 through 4 (basic evaluation, preliminary planning, design planning, and approval planning). These four phases together correspond to (3% + 7% + 11% + 6%) 27% of the total fee, which equals €6,216.53 plus VAT.
If the execution planning (work phase 5) has also been completed, then the claim amounts to (27% + 25%) 52% of the total fee, which is €11,972.58 plus VAT.
Normally, this should be clearly stated on the architect’s invoice to avoid any misunderstandings (or lack of trust).
For determining the structural engineer’s fee, the net raw construction cost is used; here I estimate 45% of the finished construction cost.
The billable net raw construction cost is therefore (215,000 € x 45% =) approximately €96,750.
According to §65 HOAI, Zone II, minimum rate, the structural engineer’s fee for all basic services across all work phases amounts to €9,502.17 plus VAT.
Which specific services of the architect and/or structural engineer have actually been provided cannot, of course, be assessed from here. Therefore, the above fee calculation can only be used as a rough guide.
I cannot yet judge how the indicated changes will affect the fees additionally; for this reason, I have not included them.
In case of uncertainties, I would always recommend starting with a calm and clarifying conversation. The collaboration between a client and their architect/structural engineer should always be based on full trust, similar to that between a lawyer, doctor, or tax advisor.
Regarding the saying "building causes distress," which you mentioned, I have not heard it before and cannot relate from my experience.
On the contrary, from my experience I can say without hesitation that building typically brings great joy to my clients.
I would be interested in comparing your architect’s cost breakdown with mine. However, as mentioned, this depends on the region in Germany where you live or plan to build.
With the structural engineer’s signature, I assume you are referring to the form "Declaration by the preparer of technical construction evidence" for the simplified approval process. This does not mean that the structural engineer’s work is completed. It only means that the evidence prepared by them complies with public building regulations and does not necessarily need to be reviewed by the building authorities. As a result, the client is also exempt from the respective review fee.
Therefore, I would expect the structural engineer to issue an invoice for the due fee after completing their services (structural safety verification including plans and lists, possibly an energy certificate, etc.).
If no written contract with the architect has yet been signed, it is likely that a contract has been agreed upon—albeit verbally—in accordance with the Building Code. In this case, the minimum fees of the HOAI (Official Scale of Fees for Services by Architects and Engineers in Germany) apply for the architect’s services.
Although construction costs vary regionally, I estimate here a value of €275 per cubic meter (m³) of enclosed space, considering, as you mentioned, that the site is on a slope and that at least part of the lower floor is probably usable for residential purposes.
This results in a total construction cost of (930 m³ x €275/m³ =) €255,750 gross.
The billable net construction cost is thus approximately €215,000.
According to §16 HOAI, Zone III, minimum rate, the architect’s fee for all basic services across all work phases amounts to €23,024.20 plus VAT.
As you describe, the architect has completed work phases 1 through 4 (basic evaluation, preliminary planning, design planning, and approval planning). These four phases together correspond to (3% + 7% + 11% + 6%) 27% of the total fee, which equals €6,216.53 plus VAT.
If the execution planning (work phase 5) has also been completed, then the claim amounts to (27% + 25%) 52% of the total fee, which is €11,972.58 plus VAT.
Normally, this should be clearly stated on the architect’s invoice to avoid any misunderstandings (or lack of trust).
For determining the structural engineer’s fee, the net raw construction cost is used; here I estimate 45% of the finished construction cost.
The billable net raw construction cost is therefore (215,000 € x 45% =) approximately €96,750.
According to §65 HOAI, Zone II, minimum rate, the structural engineer’s fee for all basic services across all work phases amounts to €9,502.17 plus VAT.
Which specific services of the architect and/or structural engineer have actually been provided cannot, of course, be assessed from here. Therefore, the above fee calculation can only be used as a rough guide.
I cannot yet judge how the indicated changes will affect the fees additionally; for this reason, I have not included them.
In case of uncertainties, I would always recommend starting with a calm and clarifying conversation. The collaboration between a client and their architect/structural engineer should always be based on full trust, similar to that between a lawyer, doctor, or tax advisor.
Regarding the saying "building causes distress," which you mentioned, I have not heard it before and cannot relate from my experience.
On the contrary, from my experience I can say without hesitation that building typically brings great joy to my clients.
I would be interested in comparing your architect’s cost breakdown with mine. However, as mentioned, this depends on the region in Germany where you live or plan to build.
Good morning Danton,
We are very grateful for the explanations and clarifications; that is very reassuring. The invoice is titled "fee installment payments" for exactly the mentioned €10,000 plus VAT. I was just a bit confused, as I have read here in the forum about architect fees of €2,800 and less.
According to the building authority, construction is scheduled to start on June 29, 2009. I hope this date is realistic given our current planning status.
There are still some things unclear to us, and we would like to get advice from a second professional. The construction contract is supposed to be finalized this week; we can send it to you. The total construction cost seems incredibly high to me. From my perspective, the house is not necessarily a highly modern building with a variety of roof styles and projections and so on. From a layperson’s point of view, it is hard to understand what justifies such a large amount of money. Nevertheless, I want to emphasize that we do have trust; otherwise, we would have given up long ago. But as a client who could potentially face financial ruin, a second opinion or consultation is very much appreciated. Is it possible to have a phone consultation with you?
Best regards
We are very grateful for the explanations and clarifications; that is very reassuring. The invoice is titled "fee installment payments" for exactly the mentioned €10,000 plus VAT. I was just a bit confused, as I have read here in the forum about architect fees of €2,800 and less.
According to the building authority, construction is scheduled to start on June 29, 2009. I hope this date is realistic given our current planning status.
There are still some things unclear to us, and we would like to get advice from a second professional. The construction contract is supposed to be finalized this week; we can send it to you. The total construction cost seems incredibly high to me. From my perspective, the house is not necessarily a highly modern building with a variety of roof styles and projections and so on. From a layperson’s point of view, it is hard to understand what justifies such a large amount of money. Nevertheless, I want to emphasize that we do have trust; otherwise, we would have given up long ago. But as a client who could potentially face financial ruin, a second opinion or consultation is very much appreciated. Is it possible to have a phone consultation with you?
Best regards
Hello NUISETTE,
we were actually on a first-name basis, and I’m fine with keeping it that way.
The fees for architects and engineers, as well as the services they provide, are regulated by the HOAI, which has legal status.
There may be professionals who charge less than these fees, but that is usually not in the best interest of the client, as the quality and safety standards required for buildings are unlikely to be met.
Additionally, these fee rates have not been adjusted to general price increases since 1996. An adjustment is currently under political discussion.
Does your local building authority determine the start date of construction?
I find that hard to believe.
Of course, I am happy to provide telephone advice, if that is even possible. As you rightly mentioned, I would need to review the relevant documents first.
However, I must also mention that proper consultation usually requires a consultation fee, which is generally charged on an hourly basis according to §6 HOAI, depending on the effort involved.
If you would like to contact me, there are three options:
1. Simply send me a private message with your contact details, and I will get back to you.
2. You can find my address on the left in the listings.
3. My phone number can be found in the regular phone directory.
I am always glad when I can help someone.
we were actually on a first-name basis, and I’m fine with keeping it that way.
The fees for architects and engineers, as well as the services they provide, are regulated by the HOAI, which has legal status.
There may be professionals who charge less than these fees, but that is usually not in the best interest of the client, as the quality and safety standards required for buildings are unlikely to be met.
Additionally, these fee rates have not been adjusted to general price increases since 1996. An adjustment is currently under political discussion.
Does your local building authority determine the start date of construction?
I find that hard to believe.
Of course, I am happy to provide telephone advice, if that is even possible. As you rightly mentioned, I would need to review the relevant documents first.
However, I must also mention that proper consultation usually requires a consultation fee, which is generally charged on an hourly basis according to §6 HOAI, depending on the effort involved.
If you would like to contact me, there are three options:
1. Simply send me a private message with your contact details, and I will get back to you.
2. You can find my address on the left in the listings.
3. My phone number can be found in the regular phone directory.
I am always glad when I can help someone.
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