Hello everyone,
After a long search for a construction company, I decided on Galileo-Home, who will be building my bungalow.
Over the past weeks and months, I have repeatedly come across the air-to-air heat pump from Proxon, and I really like this system because I’m not a fan of slow and overly warm underfloor heating.
My only problem is that Zimmermann, the company that sells and installs Proxon systems, does not collaborate with Galileo-Home and does not want to install such a system for me.
Now to my question:
Are there comparable alternatives to the Proxon system? A solution with similar fresh water heating would also be interesting, of course.
Unfortunately, after intensive research, I haven’t found anything concrete and would appreciate any tips.
Best regards,
Nicolas
After a long search for a construction company, I decided on Galileo-Home, who will be building my bungalow.
Over the past weeks and months, I have repeatedly come across the air-to-air heat pump from Proxon, and I really like this system because I’m not a fan of slow and overly warm underfloor heating.
My only problem is that Zimmermann, the company that sells and installs Proxon systems, does not collaborate with Galileo-Home and does not want to install such a system for me.
Now to my question:
Are there comparable alternatives to the Proxon system? A solution with similar fresh water heating would also be interesting, of course.
Unfortunately, after intensive research, I haven’t found anything concrete and would appreciate any tips.
Best regards,
Nicolas
B
boxandroof13 Aug 2019 08:33With air heating, as far as I know, you cannot quickly heat individual rooms separately.
Brief heating with a heat pump is not possible; if properly sized, it has too little output. It takes days for the space to warm up. The same goes for gas heating: new buildings have too much thermal mass to cool down quickly.
Build a wooden or low-mass house, install a large gas heater, and keep windows open constantly. That way, you can keep your old habits, but your heating costs will be like those of an old building.
The underfloor heating does not get warm (<30°C (86°F)); that is an outdated concept. However, it should be planned as well as possible and run 24/7 in every room. The longer (timewise) and larger the heated area, the colder it can operate and the less electricity the heat pump consumes.
Brief heating with a heat pump is not possible; if properly sized, it has too little output. It takes days for the space to warm up. The same goes for gas heating: new buildings have too much thermal mass to cool down quickly.
Build a wooden or low-mass house, install a large gas heater, and keep windows open constantly. That way, you can keep your old habits, but your heating costs will be like those of an old building.
The underfloor heating does not get warm (<30°C (86°F)); that is an outdated concept. However, it should be planned as well as possible and run 24/7 in every room. The longer (timewise) and larger the heated area, the colder it can operate and the less electricity the heat pump consumes.
NiciHoh schrieb:
Opinions here seem to be clearly against air-to-air systems, from what I see. Thanks for that.
Okay, I think I could get used to underfloor heating; the only thing that might bother me is that it could constantly be too warm.
I currently live in a timber-framed house and I’m the type to always have the windows open. If I feel cold, I close the windows, turn the radiator up a bit, and then it gets warm. Otherwise, my windows are always open, and I heat quite spontaneously and only when I need it. Probably, the classic radiator would still be the best choice for me, but who still wants radiators in a modern new build?
I hope you can understand my concern and why I was considering an air-to-air heating system. No, an old building would be ideal for you.
In modern houses, temperature changes take about 24 hours. You set your underfloor heating with a heat pump once to a desired temperature, and that temperature is maintained in every room, 365 days a year.
Anything different is either difficult to achieve (even with the system completely off in the pantry, it still stays around 19–20°C (66–68°F) because the insulation to the outside is too good, and heat transfers from other rooms through internal walls) or energy-inefficient (flow temperature so high that the bathroom reaches 25°C (77°F), while throttling down other rooms to 20°C (68°F)), which either remains affordable (gas) or financially burdensome (air-to-water heat pump).
The air-to-air heat pump is a solution designed for passive houses and should stay that way. At worst, only an exhaust air air-to-air heat pump. Otherwise, you’re looking at a money pit.
It will be a Galileo-Home house with a wooden core. Fully vapor-permeable, meaning a solid wooden wall with insulation and plaster on the outside. No membrane, vapor retarder, or vapor barrier. Inside, the walls are also completely solid wood, covered with drywall or clay plasterboards, depending on the budget.
The builder recommends a heat pump combined with underfloor heating for this type of house, and after reading your opinions, I am gradually leaning toward underfloor heating as well...
The builder recommends a heat pump combined with underfloor heating for this type of house, and after reading your opinions, I am gradually leaning toward underfloor heating as well...
Yes, go for underfloor heating, preferably combined with a brine-to-water heat pump; if that’s not possible or desired, then an air-to-water heat pump is the next best option. I would personally avoid using an air-to-air heat pump (except in a passive house)!
By the way: Whether or not to use a vapor barrier film doesn’t really matter, since by law houses must be airtight, as regulated by the energy saving regulations. Everything else is just marketing talk (many builders seem to favor vapor-permeable solutions, though...).
By the way: Whether or not to use a vapor barrier film doesn’t really matter, since by law houses must be airtight, as regulated by the energy saving regulations. Everything else is just marketing talk (many builders seem to favor vapor-permeable solutions, though...).
It is not a traditional air-to-air heat pump.
In our system, we have installed an air-to-water inverter heat pump. It operates like a conventional air-to-water heat pump, for example, the LWZ 504, but without underfloor heating.
Our system is quite sluggish—probably even more so than a modern underfloor heating system. It cannot suddenly triple the airflow and raise the temperature to 40°C (104°F). Doing so would cause drafts and hot air blowing out of every vent, similar to a hairdryer. It is likely the same with the Proxon system.
Rapid heating with a heat pump and compliance with energy-saving regulations does not work for the house. If you want to warm up quickly in the evening while sitting on the sofa, then a wood stove or infrared heater is better.
Apparently, in the passive house sector, there is an increasing trend towards using a low base temperature with short, targeted heating as needed.
In our system, we have installed an air-to-water inverter heat pump. It operates like a conventional air-to-water heat pump, for example, the LWZ 504, but without underfloor heating.
Our system is quite sluggish—probably even more so than a modern underfloor heating system. It cannot suddenly triple the airflow and raise the temperature to 40°C (104°F). Doing so would cause drafts and hot air blowing out of every vent, similar to a hairdryer. It is likely the same with the Proxon system.
Rapid heating with a heat pump and compliance with energy-saving regulations does not work for the house. If you want to warm up quickly in the evening while sitting on the sofa, then a wood stove or infrared heater is better.
Apparently, in the passive house sector, there is an increasing trend towards using a low base temperature with short, targeted heating as needed.
H
Heizungsbau7620 Apr 2020 20:30I believe most people here have misunderstood the Proxon air heating system. It is not an air-to-air heat pump! It is a standard ventilation system with heat recovery through a crossflow heat exchanger, which transfers up to 85% of the heat from the exhaust air to the supply air. The reheating (compensating for heat loss) is done by small electric heating elements in the ceiling outlets of the supply air in each room. This allows every room to be individually, quickly, and easily heated. Ideally, the required electricity should be supplied by a photovoltaic system. A heat pump is not used in this process at all.
The idea that air is a poor medium for heat transport cannot simply be accepted here either. Yes, air has a lower specific heat capacity than, for example, water, meaning you need to move more air to transport 1 watt of heat than water. The ventilation system moves air anyway, which is why heat transport by air is measured in cubic meters per hour (cbm/h) rather than liters per hour. Secondly, the heating elements warm the air right where the heat is needed, so transport losses are practically nonexistent.
The claim that a radiator or underfloor heating system heats a room better is also incorrect. If a room requires 100 watts per hour of heat, you need to deliver those 100 watts regardless of the method used.
The fact is that you can feel the warm air directly on your body. This means the system responds much faster than a water-based system. A radiator first has to warm up itself and then transfer the heat from the heating water to the room air and surrounding surfaces before you can feel it, making it slower than air heating. Underfloor heating is even slower, as there is no convective component, and the entire screed has to be heated. Additionally, both water-based heating systems stir up dust in the house, whereas the air heating system filters it out.
The only heat pump component in the Proxon system is used for domestic hot water heating via an (exhaust) air heat pump. This is connected behind the exhaust air duct of the ventilation system. The air leaving the house, which has already transferred about 85% of its heat to the fresh air through the ventilation’s crossflow heat exchanger, has additional heat extracted to recover energy and transfer it to the domestic hot water using heat pump technology. This approach is actually very clever because instead of blowing exhaust air at about 10°C (50°F) outside in winter, it recovers the last usable energy content.
Similar to a condensing boiler, where exhaust gases—the byproduct of combustion—are cooled down through an additional heat exchanger so much that almost all their energy is extracted and they cannot rise through the chimney on their own but have to be mechanically extracted, the Proxon system also uses another heat exchanger "after" the ventilation unit.
This also explains why Proxon systems often produce condensate. This should, of course, not occur uncontrolled but be properly managed through a condensate drain connection.
Warm air can hold more water vapor than cold air. So if warm indoor air, which contains a relatively high level of moisture (from cooking, showering, perspiration), is passed over the cold incoming fresh air to recover heat, condensate formation is inevitable. Therefore, filters, condensate pans, and condensate drains should be cleaned regularly.
In my opinion, such a system makes a lot of sense because it combines the now essential ventilation system with an affordable heating system, provided the entire system is well coordinated (for example, with its own photovoltaic system and battery) and properly balanced.
Just like with a water-based heating system, ventilation and ventilation heating require a "hydraulic" balancing. All supply air valves must be correctly adjusted to each room to ensure the precisely required air volume flow, similar to adjusting radiator valves. This is done using an electronic vane anemometer with a funnel that is inserted into the respective connection.
The idea that air is a poor medium for heat transport cannot simply be accepted here either. Yes, air has a lower specific heat capacity than, for example, water, meaning you need to move more air to transport 1 watt of heat than water. The ventilation system moves air anyway, which is why heat transport by air is measured in cubic meters per hour (cbm/h) rather than liters per hour. Secondly, the heating elements warm the air right where the heat is needed, so transport losses are practically nonexistent.
The claim that a radiator or underfloor heating system heats a room better is also incorrect. If a room requires 100 watts per hour of heat, you need to deliver those 100 watts regardless of the method used.
The fact is that you can feel the warm air directly on your body. This means the system responds much faster than a water-based system. A radiator first has to warm up itself and then transfer the heat from the heating water to the room air and surrounding surfaces before you can feel it, making it slower than air heating. Underfloor heating is even slower, as there is no convective component, and the entire screed has to be heated. Additionally, both water-based heating systems stir up dust in the house, whereas the air heating system filters it out.
The only heat pump component in the Proxon system is used for domestic hot water heating via an (exhaust) air heat pump. This is connected behind the exhaust air duct of the ventilation system. The air leaving the house, which has already transferred about 85% of its heat to the fresh air through the ventilation’s crossflow heat exchanger, has additional heat extracted to recover energy and transfer it to the domestic hot water using heat pump technology. This approach is actually very clever because instead of blowing exhaust air at about 10°C (50°F) outside in winter, it recovers the last usable energy content.
Similar to a condensing boiler, where exhaust gases—the byproduct of combustion—are cooled down through an additional heat exchanger so much that almost all their energy is extracted and they cannot rise through the chimney on their own but have to be mechanically extracted, the Proxon system also uses another heat exchanger "after" the ventilation unit.
This also explains why Proxon systems often produce condensate. This should, of course, not occur uncontrolled but be properly managed through a condensate drain connection.
Warm air can hold more water vapor than cold air. So if warm indoor air, which contains a relatively high level of moisture (from cooking, showering, perspiration), is passed over the cold incoming fresh air to recover heat, condensate formation is inevitable. Therefore, filters, condensate pans, and condensate drains should be cleaned regularly.
In my opinion, such a system makes a lot of sense because it combines the now essential ventilation system with an affordable heating system, provided the entire system is well coordinated (for example, with its own photovoltaic system and battery) and properly balanced.
Just like with a water-based heating system, ventilation and ventilation heating require a "hydraulic" balancing. All supply air valves must be correctly adjusted to each room to ensure the precisely required air volume flow, similar to adjusting radiator valves. This is done using an electronic vane anemometer with a funnel that is inserted into the respective connection.
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