Hello,
We are starting to get really frustrated... every builder tells us something different...
We want to build a 130sqm (1,399 sq ft) KfW 70 house with the living room facing south, and we are unsure whether to choose gas or an air source heat pump. Some providers, at almost the same price level, offer us air source heat pumps and claim that the annual costs are significantly (30%) lower compared to gas, while others doubt this.
We understand that insulation with gas/solar systems is usually better because an air source heat pump boosts efficiency more towards KfW 70 standards compared to gas/solar, which might argue in favor of gas. An air source heat pump might fail somewhat sooner, and in case of problems, you can usually get quick and competent local support with gas. With air source heat pumps, there could be more difficulties. Additionally, the noise of air source heat pumps (in our case about 3 meters (10 feet) from the neighbor) is not insignificant. Some say that sooner or later, everyone ends up having issues with neighbors for this reason.
We are interested in air source heat pumps with storage tanks from these providers: Vaillant, Mitsubishi Zubadan, and Rotex.
What we are really curious about is the annual cost for heating and hot water with both systems.
We live near Kassel.
What should we choose, and what would be cost-effective TODAY? What is your opinion on Vaillant?
Regards
Gigi
We are starting to get really frustrated... every builder tells us something different...
We want to build a 130sqm (1,399 sq ft) KfW 70 house with the living room facing south, and we are unsure whether to choose gas or an air source heat pump. Some providers, at almost the same price level, offer us air source heat pumps and claim that the annual costs are significantly (30%) lower compared to gas, while others doubt this.
We understand that insulation with gas/solar systems is usually better because an air source heat pump boosts efficiency more towards KfW 70 standards compared to gas/solar, which might argue in favor of gas. An air source heat pump might fail somewhat sooner, and in case of problems, you can usually get quick and competent local support with gas. With air source heat pumps, there could be more difficulties. Additionally, the noise of air source heat pumps (in our case about 3 meters (10 feet) from the neighbor) is not insignificant. Some say that sooner or later, everyone ends up having issues with neighbors for this reason.
We are interested in air source heat pumps with storage tanks from these providers: Vaillant, Mitsubishi Zubadan, and Rotex.
What we are really curious about is the annual cost for heating and hot water with both systems.
We live near Kassel.
What should we choose, and what would be cost-effective TODAY? What is your opinion on Vaillant?
Regards
Gigi
ruppsn schrieb:
A slap in the face for anyone who would have to pay a surcharge of $10,000 or more [emoji23] In my opinion, the conditions make this a very bad decision, but you have to feel comfortable and trust your heating system, not me [emoji4] I’m curious to see how things develop.I completely agree. He would basically get "€10,000 to €15,000 (about $11,000 to $16,000) for free" and then decides against it. That’s a choice, but it’s hard to understand.
What type of heating system are you going with now?
R
R.Hotzenplotz26 Mar 2018 20:58I am installing a Viessmann Vitodens 300-W boiler and a Vitosol 200-F solar module.
Why are 10,000 to 15,000 euros supposedly a gift? I doubt that even 5,000 euros will pay off.
This seems to be a major question of belief. As mentioned, experts also give advice going both ways. A few even say it balances out, and basically, you can’t go wrong with either option.
Why are 10,000 to 15,000 euros supposedly a gift? I doubt that even 5,000 euros will pay off.
This seems to be a major question of belief. As mentioned, experts also give advice going both ways. A few even say it balances out, and basically, you can’t go wrong with either option.
M
Mastermind126 Mar 2018 21:33Let’s put it this way... With conventional, well-established oil or gas condensing boilers, there is a significantly higher chance that the heating installer will plan, install, and commission the system properly.
Unfortunately, a lot of poor work is done with heat pumps.
A heat pump—whether air-source, ground-source, or brine-to-water—is a complex system. Many elements need to be coordinated and planned carefully, and often the planning fails. (Although, judging by the prices charged by installers, you would expect to be buying a well-matched system.)
Therefore, oil and gas solutions tend to run more reliably and effectively than many heat pump systems.
The energy saving regulations (such as the Energy Saving Ordinance) also contribute when individual room controllers are required for heat pumps. Hydraulically, this is an efficiency killer for the minimum flow required by the heat pump.
The friendly manufacturer will say, “That’s why we have our buffer tank.” But this has been proven to reduce efficiency as well.
(P.S. You could apply for an exemption from the individual room controllers... but who actually does that in practice?)
Unfortunately, a lot of poor work is done with heat pumps.
A heat pump—whether air-source, ground-source, or brine-to-water—is a complex system. Many elements need to be coordinated and planned carefully, and often the planning fails. (Although, judging by the prices charged by installers, you would expect to be buying a well-matched system.)
Therefore, oil and gas solutions tend to run more reliably and effectively than many heat pump systems.
The energy saving regulations (such as the Energy Saving Ordinance) also contribute when individual room controllers are required for heat pumps. Hydraulically, this is an efficiency killer for the minimum flow required by the heat pump.
The friendly manufacturer will say, “That’s why we have our buffer tank.” But this has been proven to reduce efficiency as well.
(P.S. You could apply for an exemption from the individual room controllers... but who actually does that in practice?)
R
R.Hotzenplotz29 Mar 2018 14:24I received feedback today. If they install to the southeast, due to the chimney, they can only fit three instead of the four flat plate collectors with 10m² (108 sq ft) each as previously offered. This reduces the price by €890.00.
Apparently, this is not an issue legally. It can probably be ordered that way.
Apparently, this is not an issue legally. It can probably be ordered that way.
R
R.Hotzenplotz30 Mar 2018 19:35I have seen that there is an official fine schedule for violations of the Energy Saving Ordinance. It also states that the building owner is always primarily responsible for any violations.
So, do I not need to worry if the contractor
a) installs fewer flat-plate collectors than calculated (because there isn’t enough space on the east side we chose due to the chimney),
b) lays the collectors flat at 15°, which was not originally planned.
I have read that compliance with the Energy Saving Ordinance is also checked by the authorities, and I want to avoid any problems later. Is it absolutely certain that we won’t have any issues with our approach?
So, do I not need to worry if the contractor
a) installs fewer flat-plate collectors than calculated (because there isn’t enough space on the east side we chose due to the chimney),
b) lays the collectors flat at 15°, which was not originally planned.
I have read that compliance with the Energy Saving Ordinance is also checked by the authorities, and I want to avoid any problems later. Is it absolutely certain that we won’t have any issues with our approach?
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