ᐅ 5.5 hours of discussion. Breathable or airtight?

Created on: 18 Nov 2015 00:17
3
305er
Hi everyone,

We had a really exhausting day today.
We had two meetings at the prefabricated house center in Mannheim.
In the morning, we visited Keitel-Haus, and in the afternoon, Hanse Haus.

Our problem is: after meeting with Keitel-Haus, we thought we finally had clarity. But Hanse claims exactly the opposite.

At Keitel-Haus, this was our second long discussion, and this time we went into detail with a precise written quote and detailed descriptions of the individual building materials.

Now to the different statements, and we would appreciate your opinions as well.
You have the experience and are independent.

Exterior wall:
Keitel-Haus: vapor-permeable wall WITHOUT a vapor barrier (vapor retarder).
Including:
60mm (2.4 inches) wood fiber insulation board
200mm (7.9 inches) timber frame construction
200mm (7.9 inches) mineral fiber insulation
Wall thickness 29.2cm (11.5 inches)

Hanse: vapor-permeable wall WITH vapor retarder
Including:
150mm (5.9 inches) thermal insulation, thermal conductivity class 032
8mm (0.3 inches) OSB board
125mm (4.9 inches) timber frame construction (with mineral insulation)
8mm (0.3 inches) OSB board
vapor-permeable vapor retarder fleece
12.5mm (0.5 inches) gypsum board

So,
Keitel-Haus says: We build a proper vapor-permeable wall, so without any vapor retarders. This allows moisture to really escape outside, preventing mold growth.
Hanse says: That’s nonsense, there are no houses that can "breathe". We have a vapor retarder because we want to hold back water vapor, i.e., moisture. We don’t want it to enter the wall, as it would cause damage. Without a barrier, mold would eventually develop.

What is correct here?

Topic 2
Heating technology / ventilation:

Keitel-Haus:
They considered our wishes and said that while they think controlled residential ventilation is good, they do not recommend controlled ventilation with heat recovery. I don’t remember exactly why, but there was a lengthy explanation. Anyway, probably because of underfloor heating, we wanted a heat pump.

Hanse:
They tried to persuade us to get a different kind of heat pump and insisted it would be better to have controlled ventilation WITH heat recovery.
It would save energy, and windows can still be opened (which we want, especially at night while sleeping and sometimes in summer).

If I remember correctly, I recently read only negative things about that kind of heat pump, and that it would financially disadvantage us.
Hanse says: Nonsense. If the house is built properly and the system is installed correctly, this kind of heat pump is best, and they can ensure it is the most cost-effective.

Topic 3
KfW 40/55 standards

Keitel-Haus:
KfW 55 is optimal and can be achieved without problems according to our requirements (photovoltaics, underfloor heating, heat pump, vapor-permeable wall).
KfW 40 requires too much effort and is much too expensive. The savings wouldn’t justify it.

Hanse:
KfW 40 or better yet Passive House, since from 2020 Passive House standard is mandatory anyway.
The difference from KfW 55 to KfW 40 would only be about €9000 and corresponds to additional insulation under the slab and roof. No extra technology would be needed, and the savings would be enormous!
Their walls already meet KfW 40 as standard.

Topic 4:
Exterior wall insulation

Keitel-Haus builds with wood fiber insulation board. Styrofoam (EPS) is standard but not recommended because it is vapor-tight. That’s why they offer a better "open" wall.
I know Styrofoam is extremely poor in fire performance. I don’t like it at all.

Hanse:
I had no clear answer; I couldn’t really get details. They just said Styrofoam is not so bad, and their thermal insulation contains some graphite.
It seemed to me like Styrofoam with graphite additives or something similar.

I know, lots of questions again.
I have already spent many hours reading but still don’t feel much wiser.
These topics are very complex and sometimes a bit beyond me.

From the feeling we have, we would build with Keitel-Haus.
The Hanse representative was arrogant and "aggressive." I even almost argued with him because he was unwilling to discuss most points, including providing a written offer. He said he only bothers if he knows you really want to build with them. For me, a comparison makes no sense without different offers and service descriptions to compare.

We also looked at Fingerhut, but after 6 weeks they still haven’t provided an offer. So that’s a no-go for us. The "salesperson" seems to prefer working his side job (entertainer).
Rensch-Haus gave us many verbal promises that everything would be possible (of course, for extra money, everything is possible), but 90% of what should have been standard was not in the service description.
EveundGerd18 Nov 2015 20:51
If you have concerns about the wall construction, why not build monolithically? Have you already gathered quotes of this type?

I can only share my own experience: Hanse Haus also has a model home in this show house park, and three years ago they did not leave the best impression.

The most important points about the low-energy house regulation (LLWP) have already been covered here.

Is KfW 55 now worthwhile... what is the financial difference between 70 and 55?
O
oleda222
19 Nov 2015 07:30
From the inside to the outside, we have:

12 mm drywall boards
12 mm OSB
60 mm installation cavity with wood fiber insulation
12 mm OSB
200 mm stud frame with wood fiber insulation
35 mm Pavatex wood fiberboard

Your interior partition walls are not mentioned (OSB/drywall boards), but otherwise, it’s quite similar.

What type of board is used on the outermost layer?
305er19 Nov 2015 10:35
Mycraft schrieb:
A vapor retarder (not a vapor barrier—these are two different things) is necessary if you don’t want your wall to eventually start rotting (although it is possible to build without one, but then there is no margin for error and you can’t really expect everything to be done perfectly during construction.)
Keitel-Haus states that their wall construction is designed to allow good diffusion, so moisture is transported away.

Bautraum2015 schrieb:
In the end, we didn’t build with Keitel-Haus because it was more expensive than the contractor offering monolithic masonry construction with bricks. So it will be a solid house for us. But I still like Keitel-Haus.
May I ask where the price difference lies?

BeHaElJa schrieb:
The savings would be huge – with 450€ annual heating costs and an extra 9,000€ – that’s a good deal.
Could you explain briefly? What would the heating costs be with KFW55?

Bauexperte schrieb:
Hello,
That is not quite correct; it’s true that charred wood surfaces (not veneers, but for example roof battens) slow down the burning process.

Concrete offers the longest fire resistance if it is not reinforced with steel. But who really wants to live in a concrete bunker?

It’s definitely not seconds, but if a fire occurs, it is advisable to escape from the smoke.

Regards, Bauexperte
Hi, yes, wood has low thermal conductivity and forms a kind of protective layer (charcoal layer) as it burns, which slows down the further burning.

Furthermore, wood behaves predictably and gives warnings before it breaks.

Sure, concrete, but nobody really wants that.

Seconds is an exaggeration, but only a few minutes at most before the polystyrene can ignite the whole house.

Running and dripping fires add to this. With open windows above the fire source, adjoining rooms ignite very quickly.

Polystyrene is one of the most dangerous materials in case of fire. Plus, all the toxic substances and smoke released. Not recommended.
Just watch polystyrene facade fires. It’s really unpleasant.

That’s why I wouldn’t accept any polystyrene on the exterior walls!

wrobel schrieb:
Hello,

That can’t be the complete wall structure, right?!

With provider A, you would see mineral wool exposed, and with provider B, due to no installation cavity, all wall fixtures are cut through the membrane?

Olli
Of course not. That’s why I said “wall structure among other things.”

The exact exterior wall structure from outside to inside:

Keitel-Haus:

# High-quality, vapor-permeable silicone resin fine plaster, pigmented throughout

# Base plaster made of reinforcement mortar with full-surface fiberglass mesh

# 60mm (2.4 inches) wood fiber insulation board

# 200mm (7.9 inches) timber frame construction with

# 200mm (7.9 inches) mineral fiber insulation (nowadays StoTherm Wood fiber insulation)

# 12mm (0.5 inches) OSB board

# 12.5mm (0.5 inches) gypsum drywall board


Hanse Haus:

# 2mm (0.08 inches) pigmented synthetic resin plaster with scratch texture

# 3mm (0.12 inches) reinforcement plaster with fiberglass mesh

# 150mm (5.9 inches) thermal insulation, WLG 032

# 8mm (0.3 inches) OSB board

# 125mm (4.9 inches) timber frame construction with mineral insulation between

# 8mm (0.3 inches) OSB board and vapor-permeable vapor retarder fleece

# 12.5mm (0.5 inches) gypsum drywall board

There is a stud every 31cm (12.2 inches) with an integrated empty electrical conduit, but to reach it, I think the membrane would have to be cut.

With Keitel-Haus, I can have as many empty conduits installed as I want and wherever I want at no extra cost.

EveundGerd schrieb:
If you have concerns about the wall construction, why not build monolithic?

Have you already requested offers like that?

Is KFW55 still worth it nowadays? What is the cost difference between KFW70 and KFW55?
Not really concerned, just wanted to know who is right about vapor diffusion openness and vapor retarder fleece and so forth.

Monolithic means solid construction, right?

Haven’t requested any offers yet, planned to call 2–3 local builders today to arrange appointments and ask about costs.

Cost difference between 70 and 55? Good question, but we want to be independent from electricity and gas anyway, so also a heat pump and photovoltaic system. That already achieves KFW 55 standard if the masonry and so on are right.


Another question: we could save 6,100€ by insulating and boarding the interior walls and ceilings ourselves.

Is that recommended? Easy to do? Or does everything have to be perfect, including cutting out around windows and so forth?

Materials would be provided except for tools.
BastianB19 Nov 2015 10:48
305er schrieb:


# 12mm (0.47 inch) OSB board

# 12.5mm (0.49 inch) gypsum board

As I said before, I would assume that there is also a vapor barrier in between here!
D
DerBjoern
19 Nov 2015 14:10
@305er
By shopping with your own expertise, I do not mean books or similar, but a certified expert. This is exactly perfect for those who have not even remotely studied anything in this area.
Uwe8219 Nov 2015 14:14
305er schrieb:
Another question: we could save €6100 if we insulate and drywall the interior walls and ceilings ourselves.

If you have plenty of time and want a real workout, then yes. We faced the same issue and could have saved about €5000; the materials would have been delivered. But, honestly, those €5000 were worth it to me. It’s also worth mentioning that we used 15mm (0.6 inch) Fermacell boards. In the large format, one person can’t lift them alone.

Conclusion: You need at least two people working on this, and even then it’s hard physical work. If you’ve never done this before, you should avoid it unless you have a lot of time and plenty of help.