ᐅ So many questions!!!!! March 17, 2015 – The starting signal
Created on: 17 Mar 2015 12:09
H
Haus-StarterH
Haus-Starter17 Mar 2015 12:09Hello everyone
So: As a "newcomer" to the topic, it is probably best to first describe the current situation before moving on to the specific questions.
I’ll just start:
We currently have a mortgage-free plot of about 6000 m² (1.5 acres) available.
On this property, there are currently 3 buildings from the mid-1950s (solid construction).
There is no zoning plan/planning permission because it is located between two towns in a mixed-use/industrial area.
1. A residential house, 9 x 14 m (30 x 46 feet), fully basemented, with a fully developed ground floor and upper floor, built to what was likely the higher quality standards for the time (the basement is mostly dry). Thermal insulation and piping (except electricity) are essentially at the 1950s standard. Roof pitch about 40 degrees, oil heating system from 2004 (but only the burner and boiler were replaced—NO NEW PIPING).
2. Garage/storage about 6 x 12 m (20 x 39 feet), no basement, no insulation, no heating, only occasionally supplied with electricity, BUT: there is still an active fire department siren on the roof :-/. Roof pitch about 40 degrees.
3. Storage hall about 6 x 25 m (20 x 82 feet), three sides enclosed, shed roof.
Our requirements/wishes for our dream home are as follows:
1. (Partial) basement
2. At least partially constructed using wood frame construction
3. About 200 m² (2150 sq ft) footprint, about 300 to 350 m² (3200 to 3750 sq ft) living area (excluding usable areas in basement and attic)
4. Tuscany style with ceilings approximately 3 m (10 feet) high (at least in the kitchen and living room), possibly with a gallery in the living room or entrance area
5. Access to the house from/through the garage
6. "Basic equipment" for bus system, fireplace, open-plan kitchen with island and pantry, mudroom, small conservatory.
So... those are the facts :-)
Now the questions:
1. Does partial preservation of the residential building make sense? If yes, what could actually be saved?
2. What about settling if you build an extension onto the old building? Is that still a concern today or is it manageable?
3. What budget would you estimate for such a project? (excluding landscaping/outdoor facilities)
Good luck
Josef
So: As a "newcomer" to the topic, it is probably best to first describe the current situation before moving on to the specific questions.
I’ll just start:
We currently have a mortgage-free plot of about 6000 m² (1.5 acres) available.
On this property, there are currently 3 buildings from the mid-1950s (solid construction).
There is no zoning plan/planning permission because it is located between two towns in a mixed-use/industrial area.
1. A residential house, 9 x 14 m (30 x 46 feet), fully basemented, with a fully developed ground floor and upper floor, built to what was likely the higher quality standards for the time (the basement is mostly dry). Thermal insulation and piping (except electricity) are essentially at the 1950s standard. Roof pitch about 40 degrees, oil heating system from 2004 (but only the burner and boiler were replaced—NO NEW PIPING).
2. Garage/storage about 6 x 12 m (20 x 39 feet), no basement, no insulation, no heating, only occasionally supplied with electricity, BUT: there is still an active fire department siren on the roof :-/. Roof pitch about 40 degrees.
3. Storage hall about 6 x 25 m (20 x 82 feet), three sides enclosed, shed roof.
Our requirements/wishes for our dream home are as follows:
1. (Partial) basement
2. At least partially constructed using wood frame construction
3. About 200 m² (2150 sq ft) footprint, about 300 to 350 m² (3200 to 3750 sq ft) living area (excluding usable areas in basement and attic)
4. Tuscany style with ceilings approximately 3 m (10 feet) high (at least in the kitchen and living room), possibly with a gallery in the living room or entrance area
5. Access to the house from/through the garage
6. "Basic equipment" for bus system, fireplace, open-plan kitchen with island and pantry, mudroom, small conservatory.
So... those are the facts :-)
Now the questions:
1. Does partial preservation of the residential building make sense? If yes, what could actually be saved?
2. What about settling if you build an extension onto the old building? Is that still a concern today or is it manageable?
3. What budget would you estimate for such a project? (excluding landscaping/outdoor facilities)
Good luck
Josef
Well, my crystal balls have just run out... without an on-site appointment, you really can’t assess anything at all... at least photos of the condition, etc., would be helpful.
Bus systems are not included in the basic package... since conventional electrical installations and bus systems are fundamentally different... so it’s either all or nothing... at least if you don’t have any expertise in this area.
By the way, "Stil" is spelled without an "e".
Otherwise, to put it bluntly, with your expectations you’re looking at the upper end of six-figure budgets or even beyond, considering current construction costs.
Bus systems are not included in the basic package... since conventional electrical installations and bus systems are fundamentally different... so it’s either all or nothing... at least if you don’t have any expertise in this area.
By the way, "Stil" is spelled without an "e".
Otherwise, to put it bluntly, with your expectations you’re looking at the upper end of six-figure budgets or even beyond, considering current construction costs.
EveundGerd17 Mar 2015 13:27Sounds like a lot of work and a significant financial investment.
Has demolition of the buildings been considered?
Have you consulted an expert to assess whether it is possible to preserve or partially reuse the existing building? It is difficult to evaluate this from a distance.
Your project could cost several million, depending on the construction method, heating system, and other factors you plan to use.
Has demolition of the buildings been considered?
Have you consulted an expert to assess whether it is possible to preserve or partially reuse the existing building? It is difficult to evaluate this from a distance.
Your project could cost several million, depending on the construction method, heating system, and other factors you plan to use.
H
Haus-Starter17 Mar 2015 14:13Hello Eve or Gerd
A demolition is definitely an option—especially from a cost perspective.
That means: If we can save a significant amount by partially preserving the old residential building (starting at around 40,000 € and up), we are willing to accept certain risks, such as a not completely dry basement, provided that settlement damage at the junctions between the new and old building can effectively be ruled out.
If this saving is not achievable at least at that level, we would definitely prefer to build new.
For all other outbuildings, we basically assume that they will need to be completely demolished.
For reference—with the budget in mind—here are some key points.
1. Partial basement of about 100m² (1,076 sq ft) with approximately 200m² (2,153 sq ft) footprint and around 300 to 350m² (3,229 to 3,767 sq ft) living space.
2. From the top edge of the foundation slab, or from the bottom edge of the ground floor ceiling, timber frame construction.
3. Ground floor ceiling height about 3m (10 ft), plus a gallery in the living room or entrance area.
4. Heat pump or pellet heating system, combined with a tiled stove/fireplace, and possibly solar panels in the future.
5. Cabling for a bus system, but possibly no further related installations at this stage.
6. Upstairs not fully finished in the first phase.
7. Large open-plan kitchen with an island.
8. Integrated garage.
9. Possibly with a small conservatory.
10. WITHOUT exterior landscaping.
I would like to leave your budget estimate initially completely uncommented, as at this point in the thread, I want to gather several estimates first in order to keep the forum members’ impartiality for a little longer.
A demolition is definitely an option—especially from a cost perspective.
That means: If we can save a significant amount by partially preserving the old residential building (starting at around 40,000 € and up), we are willing to accept certain risks, such as a not completely dry basement, provided that settlement damage at the junctions between the new and old building can effectively be ruled out.
If this saving is not achievable at least at that level, we would definitely prefer to build new.
For all other outbuildings, we basically assume that they will need to be completely demolished.
For reference—with the budget in mind—here are some key points.
1. Partial basement of about 100m² (1,076 sq ft) with approximately 200m² (2,153 sq ft) footprint and around 300 to 350m² (3,229 to 3,767 sq ft) living space.
2. From the top edge of the foundation slab, or from the bottom edge of the ground floor ceiling, timber frame construction.
3. Ground floor ceiling height about 3m (10 ft), plus a gallery in the living room or entrance area.
4. Heat pump or pellet heating system, combined with a tiled stove/fireplace, and possibly solar panels in the future.
5. Cabling for a bus system, but possibly no further related installations at this stage.
6. Upstairs not fully finished in the first phase.
7. Large open-plan kitchen with an island.
8. Integrated garage.
9. Possibly with a small conservatory.
10. WITHOUT exterior landscaping.
I would like to leave your budget estimate initially completely uncommented, as at this point in the thread, I want to gather several estimates first in order to keep the forum members’ impartiality for a little longer.
H
Haus-Starter17 Mar 2015 15:00Hello Mycraft
I understand that the data on the existing old building is quite limited.
At this point, I prefer not to upload any photos for personal reasons.
However, I can say that the basement is made of rubble masonry, there is an air-raid shelter built into the cellar, and the basement rooms—especially the basement walls—show no signs of damp plaster. Only in one spot in the basement did water enter during a heavy rainstorm some time ago through a light well, because the nearby drain was clogged.
The system for heating, water, sewage, and electricity will be completely renewed regardless of its current condition.
The same applies to the locations of the currently two chimney shafts. Even the stairways leading up/down to the basement would generally be up for discussion in terms of their current placement.
If partial preservation of the old building is considered, it would be limited exclusively to preservation up to the top edge of the basement ceiling or at most up to the underside of the ground floor ceiling (although the latter probably makes only limited sense with regard to thermal insulation if we want to build the building envelope using timber frame construction).
As an "electrical layperson," I assume that with a bus system (besides many electronic components or their control), mainly KNX cables and larger distribution boxes need to be installed. Servers, various switching modules, and even switches can be retrofitted much more easily than having to open all the walls again to lay cables.
Is this a mistaken or naive view?
I understand that the data on the existing old building is quite limited.
At this point, I prefer not to upload any photos for personal reasons.
However, I can say that the basement is made of rubble masonry, there is an air-raid shelter built into the cellar, and the basement rooms—especially the basement walls—show no signs of damp plaster. Only in one spot in the basement did water enter during a heavy rainstorm some time ago through a light well, because the nearby drain was clogged.
The system for heating, water, sewage, and electricity will be completely renewed regardless of its current condition.
The same applies to the locations of the currently two chimney shafts. Even the stairways leading up/down to the basement would generally be up for discussion in terms of their current placement.
If partial preservation of the old building is considered, it would be limited exclusively to preservation up to the top edge of the basement ceiling or at most up to the underside of the ground floor ceiling (although the latter probably makes only limited sense with regard to thermal insulation if we want to build the building envelope using timber frame construction).
As an "electrical layperson," I assume that with a bus system (besides many electronic components or their control), mainly KNX cables and larger distribution boxes need to be installed. Servers, various switching modules, and even switches can be retrofitted much more easily than having to open all the walls again to lay cables.
Is this a mistaken or naive view?
As I said, without at least seeing pictures, it’s hard to say anything... but the basement sounds pretty good. Most likely, the rest will have to go.
When it comes to bus systems, I always recommend doing thorough research first and then making a decision. Unfortunately, it often happens that people just go with whatever system their electrician friend recommends because they think it’s “great.” Most of those “great” systems end up being very limited later on.
But since you mentioned KNX and are willing to take that route, I wouldn’t recommend anything else. It’s simply the most mature system, and after almost 30 years since its inception, it remains unrivaled and up to date. Devices from back then work just as well today as current ones, and it’s foreseeable that it will stay that way for decades to come. This is in contrast to many other systems with shiny brochures that have already disappeared and will continue to do so.
Okay, enough promotion 🙂
As I said, a “basic setup” is not really possible. You need to be clear beforehand about where you want to install switches, sensors, detectors, etc. The bus cable must be routed to all these points and, if necessary, embedded behind a cover “for later.” No special boxes are needed; conventional flush-mounted boxes are sufficient. However, I would always recommend using the deeper ones, so you have more space for whatever you might need later.
Everywhere something is going to be switched—lights, sockets, shutters, etc.—a power cable must run directly from the distribution board without any detours or junction boxes.
You can see the structure is completely different from conventional electrical installations.
Whether you install all switches, sensors, etc. at the beginning or retrofit them later is up to you. However, retrofitting requires knowledge of the system and the ability to adjust the original programming somewhat. Or you have the budget and call in an electrician every time— but in that case, you might as well have everything installed from the start.
When it comes to bus systems, I always recommend doing thorough research first and then making a decision. Unfortunately, it often happens that people just go with whatever system their electrician friend recommends because they think it’s “great.” Most of those “great” systems end up being very limited later on.
But since you mentioned KNX and are willing to take that route, I wouldn’t recommend anything else. It’s simply the most mature system, and after almost 30 years since its inception, it remains unrivaled and up to date. Devices from back then work just as well today as current ones, and it’s foreseeable that it will stay that way for decades to come. This is in contrast to many other systems with shiny brochures that have already disappeared and will continue to do so.
Okay, enough promotion 🙂
As I said, a “basic setup” is not really possible. You need to be clear beforehand about where you want to install switches, sensors, detectors, etc. The bus cable must be routed to all these points and, if necessary, embedded behind a cover “for later.” No special boxes are needed; conventional flush-mounted boxes are sufficient. However, I would always recommend using the deeper ones, so you have more space for whatever you might need later.
Everywhere something is going to be switched—lights, sockets, shutters, etc.—a power cable must run directly from the distribution board without any detours or junction boxes.
You can see the structure is completely different from conventional electrical installations.
Whether you install all switches, sensors, etc. at the beginning or retrofit them later is up to you. However, retrofitting requires knowledge of the system and the ability to adjust the original programming somewhat. Or you have the budget and call in an electrician every time— but in that case, you might as well have everything installed from the start.