ᐅ Semi-detached house, upscale fittings: Are the additional costs accurate?
Created on: 6 Dec 2014 11:35
3
305er
Hello,
Yesterday, we met with an architect who showed us a plot of land for a semi-detached house. The other half is already built.
The house has 140 sqm (1507 sqft) of living space, although a large part of this already includes the basement, as it is usable living space (with a window).
The house will be finished to a high standard (I will copy the real estate listing at the end here).
The architect will act as the general contractor and work with local craftsmen.
For additional work such as extra electrical outlets, different bathroom fixtures, etc., I will need to contact his respective craftsmen, who will then provide me with the costs.
Now to the main questions:
The house comes only with a gas heating system and radiators in the rooms.
He said if I want underfloor heating, it will be operated by an air-source heat pump.
The extra cost for this system plus underfloor heating is about €15,000 (about $16,200).
This sounded reasonable to me as I didn’t have any idea before. On this forum, some people were shocked when someone had to pay €8,000 (about $8,600) more.
What do you think about my price?
Also, he kept saying that this air-source heat pump is a form of solar technology, because it extracts heat from the air.
Furthermore:
There are additional costs of about €18,000 (about $19,400) for earthworks, sewer connections, and utility connections.
Is this reasonable?
He said this includes excavation and laying the connections from the street to the house (electricity, water, etc.).
Another extra:
We could install a heat recovery ventilation system with air filters for about €15,000 (about $16,200), similar to what you find in passive prefab houses.
He estimates this could improve the energy efficiency rating from KfW 70 (the usual) to 55.
Is it worth the extra cost, also considering the health benefits?
I am allergic to pollen and suffer from extreme eye itching/burning, throat itching, etc.
These were my main questions so far.
Additional points:
I forgot to ask about the cost for electric shutters. What would you estimate?
And approximately how much would a garage cost?
Is a bedroom with a walk-in closet sized at 15 sqm (160 sqft) big enough? It seems a bit small to me.
Finally:
The plot is on a slight slope. This means roughly half of the basement is below ground level, or put differently, from the terrace there are a few steps down to the garden.
On the left side is the other semi-detached house, on the right side there is a stream, and behind the garden, directly adjacent without any gap, the forest slope goes up.
There is occasional wildlife visiting (according to the neighbor: mice, two rats, a marten’s nest somewhere nearby, a young deer, wild boar).
How would you assess this kind of plot? We are basically city people.
That’s all from me for now. Thanks for your help.
Here is the listing:
+++ NO COMMISSION +++ “BAUHAUS STYLE” IDYLL BY A STREAM – with Basement
Purchase Price:
289,820.00 EUR
Rooms:
5.0
Living Area Approx.:
140.91 sqm (1,517 sqft)
Plot Size Approx.:
420.00 sqm (4,500 sqft)
Main Features
House type:
Semi-detached house
Usable area approx.:
16 sqm (172 sqft)
Number of floors:
3
Bedrooms:
4
Bathrooms:
1
Guest toilet:
Basement:
TV / Internet / Telephone:
Electricity consumption: from 2,500 kWh*
Costs
Purchase price:
289,820.00 EUR
Buyer’s commission:
None
Building Quality
Construction phase:
House in planning (designed)
Standard of finishes:
High-quality
Heating type:
Central heating
Energy certificate:
Not yet available
Property Description
Idyllically situated by a stream, secluded at the edge of the forest, a planned, attractive detached family home with a basement will be built here, turnkey and solidly constructed. This spacious and modern energy-efficient house can be customized with the architect to meet your personal needs, including changes to the floor plan and finishes for your “dream home.” - the open living/dining area is spacious and bright with lots of glazing overlooking the garden and terrace - room layout changes possible - master bedroom with walk-in closet and two children’s rooms - daylight-filled comfort bathroom - generous living/work room in the garden-level basement
Features
“Masterful craftsmanship by local specialized tradesmen” - finished basement - energy-saving, breathable natural brickwork with additional external insulation for energy-conscious comfort - heating system with efficient gas condensing technology, optionally with solar collectors and underfloor heating - family-friendly daylight bathroom with tub and shower - ceramic sanitary fixtures by “Villeroy & Boch” - bathroom and guest toilet tiled in granite - smoke detectors in all bedrooms - partially glass interior doors with decorative balcony railings on the upper floor - interior window sills in “Carrara Bianco” marble - solid wood veneer interior doors with stainless steel handles - electrical switches by “Gira” “Everything is possible, nothing is mandatory... let your wishes run free.”
Additional
Availability: approx. 16 weeks construction time after start
Floor plans and elevations may include optional features at extra cost.
Turnkey means in this offer:
- including plot
- including finished basement without plot-related costs such as earthworks, sewer and utility connections
Floor coverings and painting/wallpapering work done by buyer
Yesterday, we met with an architect who showed us a plot of land for a semi-detached house. The other half is already built.
The house has 140 sqm (1507 sqft) of living space, although a large part of this already includes the basement, as it is usable living space (with a window).
The house will be finished to a high standard (I will copy the real estate listing at the end here).
The architect will act as the general contractor and work with local craftsmen.
For additional work such as extra electrical outlets, different bathroom fixtures, etc., I will need to contact his respective craftsmen, who will then provide me with the costs.
Now to the main questions:
The house comes only with a gas heating system and radiators in the rooms.
He said if I want underfloor heating, it will be operated by an air-source heat pump.
The extra cost for this system plus underfloor heating is about €15,000 (about $16,200).
This sounded reasonable to me as I didn’t have any idea before. On this forum, some people were shocked when someone had to pay €8,000 (about $8,600) more.
What do you think about my price?
Also, he kept saying that this air-source heat pump is a form of solar technology, because it extracts heat from the air.
Furthermore:
There are additional costs of about €18,000 (about $19,400) for earthworks, sewer connections, and utility connections.
Is this reasonable?
He said this includes excavation and laying the connections from the street to the house (electricity, water, etc.).
Another extra:
We could install a heat recovery ventilation system with air filters for about €15,000 (about $16,200), similar to what you find in passive prefab houses.
He estimates this could improve the energy efficiency rating from KfW 70 (the usual) to 55.
Is it worth the extra cost, also considering the health benefits?
I am allergic to pollen and suffer from extreme eye itching/burning, throat itching, etc.
These were my main questions so far.
Additional points:
I forgot to ask about the cost for electric shutters. What would you estimate?
And approximately how much would a garage cost?
Is a bedroom with a walk-in closet sized at 15 sqm (160 sqft) big enough? It seems a bit small to me.
Finally:
The plot is on a slight slope. This means roughly half of the basement is below ground level, or put differently, from the terrace there are a few steps down to the garden.
On the left side is the other semi-detached house, on the right side there is a stream, and behind the garden, directly adjacent without any gap, the forest slope goes up.
There is occasional wildlife visiting (according to the neighbor: mice, two rats, a marten’s nest somewhere nearby, a young deer, wild boar).
How would you assess this kind of plot? We are basically city people.
That’s all from me for now. Thanks for your help.
Here is the listing:
+++ NO COMMISSION +++ “BAUHAUS STYLE” IDYLL BY A STREAM – with Basement
Purchase Price:
289,820.00 EUR
Rooms:
5.0
Living Area Approx.:
140.91 sqm (1,517 sqft)
Plot Size Approx.:
420.00 sqm (4,500 sqft)
Main Features
House type:
Semi-detached house
Usable area approx.:
16 sqm (172 sqft)
Number of floors:
3
Bedrooms:
4
Bathrooms:
1
Guest toilet:
Basement:
TV / Internet / Telephone:
Electricity consumption: from 2,500 kWh*
Costs
Purchase price:
289,820.00 EUR
Buyer’s commission:
None
Building Quality
Construction phase:
House in planning (designed)
Standard of finishes:
High-quality
Heating type:
Central heating
Energy certificate:
Not yet available
Property Description
Idyllically situated by a stream, secluded at the edge of the forest, a planned, attractive detached family home with a basement will be built here, turnkey and solidly constructed. This spacious and modern energy-efficient house can be customized with the architect to meet your personal needs, including changes to the floor plan and finishes for your “dream home.” - the open living/dining area is spacious and bright with lots of glazing overlooking the garden and terrace - room layout changes possible - master bedroom with walk-in closet and two children’s rooms - daylight-filled comfort bathroom - generous living/work room in the garden-level basement
Features
“Masterful craftsmanship by local specialized tradesmen” - finished basement - energy-saving, breathable natural brickwork with additional external insulation for energy-conscious comfort - heating system with efficient gas condensing technology, optionally with solar collectors and underfloor heating - family-friendly daylight bathroom with tub and shower - ceramic sanitary fixtures by “Villeroy & Boch” - bathroom and guest toilet tiled in granite - smoke detectors in all bedrooms - partially glass interior doors with decorative balcony railings on the upper floor - interior window sills in “Carrara Bianco” marble - solid wood veneer interior doors with stainless steel handles - electrical switches by “Gira” “Everything is possible, nothing is mandatory... let your wishes run free.”
Additional
Availability: approx. 16 weeks construction time after start
Floor plans and elevations may include optional features at extra cost.
Turnkey means in this offer:
- including plot
- including finished basement without plot-related costs such as earthworks, sewer and utility connections
Floor coverings and painting/wallpapering work done by buyer
Phew, quite a hot topic. My advice... if you are seriously interested in the plot and the property, get an independent expert to review all the statements, the land, and the offer.
The information given doesn’t seem very reliable to me. Some price indications are up to 50% inflated.
Don’t rush into anything! The costs for a “bad” plot can skyrocket. Even with a soil survey, there is no 100% guarantee that additional costs won’t arise. Many issues only become clear once the earthworks have started.
Talk to the building authority (planning permission office), the local excavator, neighbors, a local structural engineer, and a local architect to find out what’s really going on.
Good luck!
The final price will likely be between 350,000 EUR and 400,000 EUR.
One more thing regarding KfW55, controlled residential ventilation, etc. Think carefully about whether it’s really worth it! Economically, it probably doesn’t make much sense. Even KfW70 certainly involves additional costs that should be examined closely. To understand all of this, you need a lot of patience and the right specialists (not advisors or salespeople!).
The information given doesn’t seem very reliable to me. Some price indications are up to 50% inflated.
Don’t rush into anything! The costs for a “bad” plot can skyrocket. Even with a soil survey, there is no 100% guarantee that additional costs won’t arise. Many issues only become clear once the earthworks have started.
Talk to the building authority (planning permission office), the local excavator, neighbors, a local structural engineer, and a local architect to find out what’s really going on.
Good luck!
The final price will likely be between 350,000 EUR and 400,000 EUR.
One more thing regarding KfW55, controlled residential ventilation, etc. Think carefully about whether it’s really worth it! Economically, it probably doesn’t make much sense. Even KfW70 certainly involves additional costs that should be examined closely. To understand all of this, you need a lot of patience and the right specialists (not advisors or salespeople!).
So, I’m back =)
On Friday, we had our meeting with the architect that lasted about 2 hours.
I’m now writing down all the questions and answers that were discussed:
Could you please provide us with a detailed breakdown of the costs? So house + additional construction costs + extras like underfloor heating, etc.?
I will receive the offer early next week.
In advance, he calculated a quote for us, which is around €359,000 (approximately $390,000) in total, including all additional construction costs such as earth excavation, water, electricity, storage, underfloor heating with air-to-water heat pump, garage, and so on.
So for us, only the property transfer tax on the land (if it works out with just the land) and the flooring and painting work would still apply.
Electric roller shutters would cost about €310 (approximately $335) per window plus €140 (approximately $150) if we want them with a timer.
However, through a coworker, I could get the switches and motors for less than half price.
Does the initial cost estimate for earth excavation and house connections also include rainwater drainage? What about the removal and landfill fees for the soil? Are those included?
Yes, everything is included. Removal and landfill fees are not needed because the soil can be stored on the property.
The topsoil has already been removed during the construction of the neighboring semi-detached house.
High-quality fittings?
Not everything is top of the line, he admits. But it is still high-quality, as there are solid construction walls, solid interior walls, solid roof, solid wood doors with stainless steel handles, the number of power outlets, and well-known German manufacturers for sanitary fittings and more (some details I forgot).
Is it an air heat pump or an air-to-water heat pump?
It is an air-to-water heat pump with a reservoir measuring 80cm x 80cm x 180cm (31in x 31in x 71in).
What about KfW 70 standard?
The building envelope meets it, but the technology does not. However, since we want underfloor heating with an air-to-water heat pump, we would achieve KfW 70.
What is the height difference between the house/foundation slab and the creek bed?
Starting from the culvert at the beginning of the property, the height difference to the top edge of the foundation slab is about 14cm (5.5 inches). At the end of the property, where the creek bends downward, it is 2.40m (7 feet 10 inches) to the foundation slab.
The closest distance from the creek to the house is 5m (16 feet).
The basement is waterproofed; he said he could even put the basement in water and nothing would happen.
If the forest floor is not absorbent, the water must flow somewhere from there. What kind of soil does the forest/slope have?
The soil on the property is “non-cohesive rocky gravel,” while the forest floor has a humus layer.
Could you provide the exact number of power outlets, TV connections, etc., on Friday?
We will get the construction service description with the offer.
He only said that if we want 2-3 more power outlets here and there, we would have to arrange that directly with the contractors.
Is this normal? That you handle this with the contractors?
What equipment series are available?
He forgot the name but said it would be included in the offer.
Soil report – Does this property have seepage water, groundwater layers, or pressure water? Is there a water vein under the property?
Seepage water could occur. This is not an issue since the building will be waterproofed.
Regarding water veins… “Do you want to search for them with a dowsing rod? Or would you not be able to sleep then?” was roughly his response. =)
Why is the land price so far below the local official land value?
Because he negotiated very firmly with the owner, who initially wanted much more. He argued that a new development area will be created there and that he wants to start the project immediately.
Currently, the price is €65,000 (approximately $70,500); he hopes and thinks he can reduce it to €60,000 (approximately $65,000).
What additional foundation costs should we expect?
None. Everything that doesn’t fit or would cost more is his responsibility.
What U-value do the installed glass units including frames have?
A U-value of 1, he said “one.”
Is the staircase from the balcony to the garden included in the purchase price?
No, just like the paving in front of the house, meaning the front yard.
Do houses made of Ytong, hollow brick, or Poroton blocks require additional insulation with external thermal insulation composite systems (ETICS / insulated render)?
A brief explanation: without ETICS, the masonry would have 4-5% air exchange, with ETICS it’s 3%.
In addition, insulation is mandatory.
I also found a good report from an independent energy expert. It says that the masonry does not really breathe.
It can “breathe” as well as we can if we hold our nose and mouth and try to breathe through our skin.
How long is the construction period?
Sixteen weeks were without basement.
With basement around 20 weeks.
With dry screed approximately 22–24 weeks. Better to plan 24 weeks to avoid too much stress on site.
He will also be on site every day to supervise and control.
And I believe he is very reliable. At least, if I had problems with him and he had fooled me, I would no longer greet or talk to him about what kinds of animals have been seen in the garden already (the neighbor from the first semi-detached house came home during the site visit).
Best regards, Sven
On Friday, we had our meeting with the architect that lasted about 2 hours.
I’m now writing down all the questions and answers that were discussed:
Could you please provide us with a detailed breakdown of the costs? So house + additional construction costs + extras like underfloor heating, etc.?
I will receive the offer early next week.
In advance, he calculated a quote for us, which is around €359,000 (approximately $390,000) in total, including all additional construction costs such as earth excavation, water, electricity, storage, underfloor heating with air-to-water heat pump, garage, and so on.
So for us, only the property transfer tax on the land (if it works out with just the land) and the flooring and painting work would still apply.
Electric roller shutters would cost about €310 (approximately $335) per window plus €140 (approximately $150) if we want them with a timer.
However, through a coworker, I could get the switches and motors for less than half price.
Does the initial cost estimate for earth excavation and house connections also include rainwater drainage? What about the removal and landfill fees for the soil? Are those included?
Yes, everything is included. Removal and landfill fees are not needed because the soil can be stored on the property.
The topsoil has already been removed during the construction of the neighboring semi-detached house.
High-quality fittings?
Not everything is top of the line, he admits. But it is still high-quality, as there are solid construction walls, solid interior walls, solid roof, solid wood doors with stainless steel handles, the number of power outlets, and well-known German manufacturers for sanitary fittings and more (some details I forgot).
Is it an air heat pump or an air-to-water heat pump?
It is an air-to-water heat pump with a reservoir measuring 80cm x 80cm x 180cm (31in x 31in x 71in).
What about KfW 70 standard?
The building envelope meets it, but the technology does not. However, since we want underfloor heating with an air-to-water heat pump, we would achieve KfW 70.
What is the height difference between the house/foundation slab and the creek bed?
Starting from the culvert at the beginning of the property, the height difference to the top edge of the foundation slab is about 14cm (5.5 inches). At the end of the property, where the creek bends downward, it is 2.40m (7 feet 10 inches) to the foundation slab.
The closest distance from the creek to the house is 5m (16 feet).
The basement is waterproofed; he said he could even put the basement in water and nothing would happen.
If the forest floor is not absorbent, the water must flow somewhere from there. What kind of soil does the forest/slope have?
The soil on the property is “non-cohesive rocky gravel,” while the forest floor has a humus layer.
Could you provide the exact number of power outlets, TV connections, etc., on Friday?
We will get the construction service description with the offer.
He only said that if we want 2-3 more power outlets here and there, we would have to arrange that directly with the contractors.
Is this normal? That you handle this with the contractors?
What equipment series are available?
He forgot the name but said it would be included in the offer.
Soil report – Does this property have seepage water, groundwater layers, or pressure water? Is there a water vein under the property?
Seepage water could occur. This is not an issue since the building will be waterproofed.
Regarding water veins… “Do you want to search for them with a dowsing rod? Or would you not be able to sleep then?” was roughly his response. =)
Why is the land price so far below the local official land value?
Because he negotiated very firmly with the owner, who initially wanted much more. He argued that a new development area will be created there and that he wants to start the project immediately.
Currently, the price is €65,000 (approximately $70,500); he hopes and thinks he can reduce it to €60,000 (approximately $65,000).
What additional foundation costs should we expect?
None. Everything that doesn’t fit or would cost more is his responsibility.
What U-value do the installed glass units including frames have?
A U-value of 1, he said “one.”
Is the staircase from the balcony to the garden included in the purchase price?
No, just like the paving in front of the house, meaning the front yard.
Do houses made of Ytong, hollow brick, or Poroton blocks require additional insulation with external thermal insulation composite systems (ETICS / insulated render)?
A brief explanation: without ETICS, the masonry would have 4-5% air exchange, with ETICS it’s 3%.
In addition, insulation is mandatory.
I also found a good report from an independent energy expert. It says that the masonry does not really breathe.
It can “breathe” as well as we can if we hold our nose and mouth and try to breathe through our skin.
How long is the construction period?
Sixteen weeks were without basement.
With basement around 20 weeks.
With dry screed approximately 22–24 weeks. Better to plan 24 weeks to avoid too much stress on site.
He will also be on site every day to supervise and control.
And I believe he is very reliable. At least, if I had problems with him and he had fooled me, I would no longer greet or talk to him about what kinds of animals have been seen in the garden already (the neighbor from the first semi-detached house came home during the site visit).
Best regards, Sven
B
Bauexperte18 Dec 2014 10:08Hello Sven,
Regards, Bauexperte
305er schrieb:Then you should do whatever you want; from what I read, you are not open to arguments from users here anyway.
[...] And I also believe that he is quite reliable ...
305er schrieb:I hope you don’t expect that any user will take the time to review the attachments or that I will do so?
I’m bringing this topic back up since some questions are still unresolved, and at the same time I’m attaching our offer and the scope of work description
Regards, Bauexperte
How do you come to the conclusion that I’m not open to arguments???
You ask questions, and I try to answer them as much as possible. That’s why I included the scope of work document, because it contains answers to all those questions!
Furthermore, I have observed this forum several times, and strangely, nothing here ever seems serious. According to this forum, no one could afford a house here!
But all of you have houses yourselves, even though surely someone told you, "Better not, you won’t manage it!"
You ask questions, and I try to answer them as much as possible. That’s why I included the scope of work document, because it contains answers to all those questions!
Furthermore, I have observed this forum several times, and strangely, nothing here ever seems serious. According to this forum, no one could afford a house here!
But all of you have houses yourselves, even though surely someone told you, "Better not, you won’t manage it!"
D
Doc.Schnaggls18 Dec 2014 12:59305er schrieb:
Furthermore, I have observed the forum several times and strangely, nothing here ever seems to be serious. Sorry, what exactly is that supposed to mean?
Are you looking for constructive criticism, which can sometimes be uncomfortable, or do you want someone to just tell you what you want to hear?
If it’s the latter, then this is the wrong place for you...
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