ᐅ The Same Old Problem – Turnkey Contracting vs. Individual Contracts

DNL schrieb:
How much does a construction engineer or project manager handling the building project typically cost? Is it comparable to what an architect would charge according to HOAI for the construction phases?

It depends on negotiation.

Good evening,

klblb schrieb:
Please refrain from making such untrue claims or accusations. Thank you.

I guess yesterday wasn’t your day?

Because when I look at this "indicates that you have little understanding of an architect's work" (from post #27, and with all due respect, the core message was not understood correctly) and compare it with Yvonne’s reaction "But you don’t want to read, you just dismiss or downgrade the architect overall. You don’t even accept that a general contractor is equally valid, just different..." (from post #31), you two aren’t that far apart after all. Only—in contrast to you, Yvonne didn’t tell you to keep your ideas and thoughts to yourself.

For you, engaging an architect to plan your building project was the best choice; obviously, you also got lucky with a good and patient one. Great, I’m happy for you! But that doesn’t mean this is the ultimate recommendation for every client, nor that most providers are incompetent. Most clients want a temporary building partner who takes over as many execution decisions as possible. The way you handle your project represents a rather rare type of client… perhaps a mechanical engineer or another kind of engineer?

The statement "An architect is indeed responsible, for example, for ensuring no thermal bridges occur. Only they have the overall view..." (from post #27) is only accurate if the architect also acts as site manager (or even structural engineer). Otherwise, the actual site manager is responsible for these tasks, or an external expert—often in close coordination with the architect (who prepared the construction drawings) and/or structural engineer.

This here "And if you think that craftsmen build according to today’s state of the art, you are very, very naive. There might be exceptions, but in terms of continuing education and knowledge of the latest technical rules, standards and guidelines, craftsmen are generally not role models..." (from post #27) is quite a statement—and I’m surprised that the craftsmen posting here haven’t challenged you on this.

I happen to know that Berlin is a hotspot for a whole range of “general contractor” types. Of course, in the capital everyone who wants to be somebody is represented—including low-cost providers and even those with a more eastern European domain or allegiance to the Isle of Man. It’s also true that craftsmen are very busy and scheduling appointments with them is not easy. BUT—even in Berlin, there are more good examples than bad; this applies to the whole country, by the way.

Maybe you asked the wrong providers at the start of your search for a building partner? Because there are indeed site managers who have never even learned the trade of bricklayer or carpenter, let alone understand the value of continuing education. Incidentally, this also applies to quite a few architects who prefer drawing pretty plans instead of inspecting a construction site. And similarly to salespeople who have climbed the career ladder from grocery store clerk to house salesperson… just like that.

BUT—whether in Berlin or elsewhere—every potential client is the master of their own fortune. They have full freedom to check potential building partners (including architects). The problem is, of course, that costs money, and this money is often spent on seemingly better features instead. Following the Rhineland motto: "It always turned out fine in the end"… which rarely works when large sums of money are involved.

And just as every client has all means of verification available, they also have the choice between architect, general contractor, or smaller construction manager. But no one should project their own experience onto others with this highly personal decision… dat hätte noch nie joot jejange

Regards, Bauexperte

Bauexperte schrieb:
I guess yesterday wasn’t your day?

You are mistaken about that, as well as about my professional background (which is irrelevant but unrelated to the construction industry) and your assumptions regarding my "search for a construction partner." I have access to a well-functioning network of architects, specialized engineers, and tradespeople.

I stand by my statements regarding architects and tradespeople. Regarding the tradespeople, I deliberately wrote "There may be exceptions."

And yes, everyone is the architect of their own fortune. You are right about that.

Good morning,

klblb schrieb:
You are mistaken with that ...

But you do realize that I was trying to build a bridge with you? Usually, your posts are free from any form of judgment.

Regards, Bauexperte

Hello construction expert,

I am very glad about the post you wrote.
And I don’t understand why people here almost resort to arguing over the topic of general contractor versus architect.

As you yourself already said, everyone is the architect of their own fortune. But that doesn’t mean one is necessarily better than the other.
Yes, we also built with an architect, but that is certainly not a cure-all solution.

Just as there are good and bad architects, there are good and bad general contractors. In the end, it is always a gut feeling and also depends on how much I want and can get involved during the construction process. A turnkey build can be just as good as a house built through individual trade contracts.
Honestly, I find your (@klblb) post about craftsmen pretty off. Certainly, there are those who don’t value further training or development much or who are simply not up to date, but that exists in every industry. I myself have met many (almost exclusively) skilled craftsmen and can’t imagine that these were just exceptions. And no, I am not from the construction industry, but my husband and some family members are, so I trust they can form a fair judgment on this.

Good morning,

Bauherren2014 schrieb:

I am very glad about the post you wrote.
And I don’t understand why people here almost “snap” at each other regarding the topic of general contractor vs. architect.

Thank you.

This often happens when users have been active in the forum for some time, regardless of the topic—I call it forum fatigue (which is why I asked klblb about their lost good mood). Whenever this occurs, I write a bit more detailed because I want to prevent others from jumping on the bandwagon and, at the same time, hope that users proofread their posts more thoroughly before hitting “send,” even if it’s one time too many rather than too few.

Additionally, anyone can post here anonymously; of course, every user is free to post under their real name—how many do so can be seen in their respective profiles. Unfortunately, anonymity often leads to good manners being swept under the rug to varying degrees. This morning, there is an interesting report on heute.de about dismissals related to posts on Facebook & Co. A key sentence from this report states: “As a rule of thumb: what you wouldn’t say to someone’s face shouldn’t be posted online either.” Well-known but unfortunately worth repeating again and again…

For the sake of fairness, I want to point out that there are building forums where things get far rougher than here; but what speaks against working towards the optimum?

Kind regards