ᐅ Single-family house ~200 m² floor plan design on a gentle slope

huhxkux schrieb:

The architect had good intentions and designed the apartment to qualify for funding. However, if interest rates continue to rise sharply and the KFW55 funding is still available, we would build it as planned.

Then start planning differently. You will almost certainly not receive the 55-level funding. We (banks) are currently being overwhelmed with applications from developers and professional investors. One of the requirements is, among other things, an approved building permit (planning permission). There are many projects like this that no longer made financial sense without funding and are now being implemented directly. I believe the current (very limited) funding pool will be exhausted more in days to weeks than months.

Alright. While entire office buildings are shutting down their LAN networks and switching completely to Wi-Fi, some homeowners are installing 10 Gbps connections in their houses... well, you can do that if you want.

Hardly anyone even subscribes to 300 Mbps anymore, and that’s more than enough for what the average person needs. And the idea that the employer doesn’t allow Wi-Fi is something you made up 😀 Have you ever heard of VPN tunnels? ZScaler or similar services? Without those, no laptop or smartphone can access the company network here...

Many laptops these days don’t even have an Ethernet port anymore... Tablets, smartphones, and smartwatches don’t have them at all...

I also only use my LAN port for ProfiNet, not for Ethernet.

MachsSelbst schrieb:

And that the employer does not allow Wi-Fi, you just made that up 😀 ever heard of VPN tunnels?

Why would I have made that up? Yes, I know VPNs, and even so, there are employers who don’t allow them.

Everyone can do as they please, but nothing should be generalized.

Topic LAN: I would definitely install at least one port in every room. In the living room, rather two. More is always better.

Regarding the floor plan as a complete beginner: personally, I think the secondary apartment is fine and I would like to have one. It’s always useful when relatives visit and want some privacy, or other guests, or one of the children.

The garage definitely needs to be removed. It would be better to use that space for the entrance area including a cloakroom. Maybe also a bike storage room with a wide exit. However, building the garage door to meet the required standards will probably be very expensive.

The kitchen is too small if you don’t just order takeout.

The staircase opening directly into the living room is problematic.

I find the utility room with a toilet a bit odd... but maybe I just can’t imagine it properly.

For the first few years, you will definitely have to move upstairs with them.

We have five people ourselves. You can need many things, but what you almost always lack are cloakroom space and generally room for STUFF.

Wow, thank you very much for all the posts, ideas, and points of criticism. It really helps to gain a different perspective on the floor plan. First of all, I have now also prepared the floor plans with more precise measurements.

I will address the individual points in more detail in another post.

Noxmortana schrieb:

The kitchen really seems very small to me. 10.5m² (about 113 sq ft) would be roughly 3 by 3.5 meters (10 by 11.5 feet), right? With a 80-90cm (31-35 inches) walkway, the proposed island would only be about 1.5 meters (5 feet) wide, which isn’t very spacious. If you add an L-shape toward the bottom of the plan, you could fit at most a similarly small peninsula. Even with a pantry passage through a tall cabinet, the extra space gained isn’t much. Have you already discussed this in a kitchen showroom and roughly planned your kitchen storage?

Thanks for the input. We do actually have an appointment on Monday to check whether the space is sufficient. For that, I’ve detailed and drawn our ideas more precisely. We believe the L-shape gives us a perfect spot for a fridge, and the corner is then out of the walkway and can be used like a normal tall cabinet. Additionally, we’d have a tall cabinet on both the left and right sides, with about 2.5 meters (8 feet) of countertop with sink in between. But, of course, this won’t be a large kitchen.

kbt09 schrieb:

The changes to the kitchen layout are counterproductive: the tall cabinet wall makes the island even narrower, and you get this barely modern “tall cabinet corridor” leading to the pantry. This will probably become a hallmark of the 2020s.

Arauki11 schrieb:

Sorry, I missed that. I would also carefully consider exactly how much countertop space you need. Especially with five young people soon, there will be more needs than before—baking bread, drying fruits, making shakes, and all kinds of stuff, requiring quite a bit of storage.

Yes, my initial quick sketch was somewhat counterproductive. This one is drawn more precisely, and we’ll discuss everything in detail at the kitchen showroom.

ypg schrieb:

Kitchen: too small to work. Way too small. Ours, for two people, is bigger with countertop surfaces, but still at the limit. Roughly speaking, you’re missing about 2 meters (6.5 feet), at least 3 tall cabinets. I would leave out the pantry and assign that space to the kitchen.

Joedreck schrieb:

The kitchen is too small if you do more than just order takeout.

I’m curious what the showroom will say about the size. The question is really how much too small the kitchen is. We don’t really want to give up the pantry because we planned to integrate the utility room there. As Joedreck wrote, we also think something like this makes more sense:

Joedreck schrieb:

The utility room with the toilet feels a bit odd… maybe it’s just hard for me to imagine.

Noxmortana schrieb:

The bedroom on the ground floor is fine for a master bedroom, but at 12m² (about 130 sq ft), it would be roughly 3 by 4 meters (10 by 13 feet). With a 2-meter (6.5-foot) bed, there’s only about 50cm (20 inches) on each side, which is neither enough for a bedside crib now nor for walking aids in old age. So eventually, the bedroom will need to be changed.

We plan to rotate the bed by 90 degrees compared to the plan, so with our 1.8m (6 ft) bed there will be close to 1 meter (39 inches) of space on each side. Even if it were 2 meters (6.5 feet), between 80 and 90cm (31-35 inches) would remain, which should be enough. A bedside crib is not planned for that room anyway since we plan to stay upstairs as long as the children are small.

Noxmortana schrieb:

Compared to our upper floor, yours is even a bit larger (with the basement apartment clearly over 200m² (2,150 sq ft), right?), plus the garage — I’d say: if you actually manage with 790k, I’d be much more optimistic about our costs; or did I miss any special information about a lot of DIY work, aside from the later finishing of the basement apartment?

The ground floor and upper floor should each be just under 100m² (about 1,020 sq ft), probably around 95-96m². Counting the entrance area, we arrive at just over 200m² (2,150 sq ft). The basement apartment adds roughly 40m² (430 sq ft) but, as you correctly say, it’s not a priority now and would only be prepared for later finishing. Currently, no DIY work is planned for the house itself; however, we intend to do some outdoor work ourselves, such as terrace, lawn, and garden shed.

kbt09 schrieb:

Well, the requirements for 16m² (170 sq ft) for children's rooms can also be adjusted to 13-16m² (140-170 sq ft).

MachsSelbst schrieb:

There aren't just the children’s rooms upstairs. There also needs to be a 15m² (160 sq ft) bathroom and an 8m² (85 sq ft) utility room… for comparison, on our 152m² (1,635 sq ft) floor plan, the combined laundry/utility room is only 6.5m² (70 sq ft).
The bathroom has enough space to move in, and above 12/13 years old, forget about brothers and sisters being in there at the same time. Dad can’t go in while the daughter is showering or bathing either.

The children’s rooms might be reduced by 1m² (11 sq ft) each, but since this is a new build, we don’t want to save too much space on that.

Yes, the upstairs bathroom is very large but should provide enough space for bathroom cabinets and up to five people using it simultaneously. Later, when we move downstairs, you’re right — nobody will need that much space since the bathroom will only be used by one or two people at a time. We can review this with the architect and possibly reduce the size.

Regarding the “utility room,” we thought it would be a good idea to have a small storage space for miscellaneous stuff right on that floor, since as is often said:

Joedreck schrieb:

We are five people ourselves. You can need lots of things, but almost always there is too little wardrobe and general storage space for stuff.

Also, the room could be converted into an office if needed.

Arauki11 schrieb:

Maybe you’ve also gotten attached to too many things, like I see here with this always hyped straight staircase that you can’t do without. We wanted a really nice staircase directly in the living area and got one; but it was allowed to have a quarter-turn with a landing because it fit the floor plan better.

Joedreck schrieb:

The staircase right into the living room is hell.

Yes, the staircase is a sensitive topic we’ve discussed a lot, but my wife really wants a straight staircase. If that’s her absolute wish, and we have to make compromises like having the stairs directly in the living area, then it’s probably okay. I’m still unsure about having the staircase there; on the other hand, I can quite imagine coming up from below and ending up not in a corridor but right in the living space.

Arauki11 schrieb:

Sorry to be blunt, but if that’s the case (and I think it is), then the plan must be scrapped completely to create living space that fits the plot and your needs!
Forget those things; maybe you have a kitchen and dining room on the ground floor and living plus a small TV room upstairs for the kids later or whatever, and with the “leftover” money install air conditioning, a nice terrace roof, and other stuff.
Never what you expect.
You build for the present or likely future. For me, those will be soon adolescent children who want their own space in the living and dining rooms, which I don’t see well planned here.
If you’re one of the lucky ones with money left after building, then enjoy it. But for now, I’d give more space to living areas (dining/living/kitchen) rather than spend space and money on multiple costly measures.
You should review or adjust what you instructed the architect so this is the result.

Thanks for the input; maybe that’s exactly the right approach. Even though it’s really tough to start over completely and just scrap the requirements we have so far.

ypg schrieb:

Tip: also skip the second exterior entrance, extend the main hallway leftwards, and plan closet space and an entrance hall there. Then there’s room for a stroller, which you can’t plan for where you only have a hallway.
Then shrink the guest wing a bit.
A toilet near the entrance is really necessary; people’s need is often high when they come home, not just kids.
The cellar hallway is very narrow — something to keep in mind, but not a disaster.

Thanks for the idea. It sounds very sensible and I’ve already noted it down for our next meeting with the architect. This also fits well with the topic of the basement apartment, as Arauki11 mentioned:

Arauki11 schrieb:

Hmm… you’re not one yourself since you don’t give any reason why you’d want to build living space for tens of thousands of euros nobody really needs.

That’s true. The only reason I can think of is that later it’s not so easy to add such space, so better to have it prepared now than regret it. But I completely agree we could save several thousand euros here. So I’ll bring it up in the next talk with the architect and see if he has more ideas, especially about the wardrobe space:

Noxmortana schrieb:

I’d miss wardrobe space: what was relaxed with two people and a baby is now chaos with a toddler and a baby—mud suits, hats, light jackets, wool suits and the mess builds up…

Joedreck schrieb:

We are five people ourselves. You can need lots of things, but almost always there is too little wardrobe and general storage space for stuff.

ypg schrieb:

I wonder how you imagine the entrance and wardrobe: some hooks with all the jackets of five people hanging on the wall? That could be over 20 jackets hanging unordered.

to alleviate

nordanney schrieb:

Then start planning already. You will almost certainly not get the 55 subsidy. Banks are currently flooded with applications from developers and professional investors. Part of the requirement is a granted building permit/planning permission. A lot of projects that are no longer financially viable without subsidies are being rushed through right now. I’d give the current (very small) subsidy pot days to weeks rather than months until it’s empty.

Thanks for your input! I suspected as much. We could have a building permit/planning permission early February with the fast procedure since we comply completely with the zoning plan, but even then, the subsidy might no longer exist. I would support the idea not to plan the basement apartment at all.

ypg schrieb:

Basically, I find the window positions awful: they’re too close to the corners and make the house look bulky.

Interesting point. We’ll look at that carefully during our next walks by other houses.

Joedreck schrieb:

Regarding LAN: I would definitely have at least one port installed in every room. Two in the living room is better. Better is the enemy of good.

Yes, that’s what we plan too. Cost is still manageable now but would be hard to retrofit later.

Now about the garage:

Papierturm schrieb:

A few quick thoughts:
The budget seems tight. It could work, but if things go badly, it might overshoot by a substantial amount (> 50,000, maybe even > 100,000). I’d approach it differently, just as brainstorming (or perhaps brain fail):
- Exclude the garage from the thermal envelope.
- Shrink the house overall. Move parts of the program into the basement (garage for living space, basement I for workrooms).
- Calculate the basement apartment carefully to see whether the interest advantage outweighs its costs (apartment itself and the additional space required). If not, more space needs could be shifted to the basement and the house made smaller accordingly.
The only thing I really dislike about the current design is the entrance area that many mentioned. Otherwise, I only worry a bit about the budget.

Joedreck schrieb:

The garage has to go urgently. Use that space for the entrance area including a wardrobe, maybe also a bicycle room with a wide door. But the garage door for standard compliance will likely be expensive.

Arauki11 schrieb:

Same with the basement apartment. You spend tens of thousands on a garage because neither you nor the architect has a better idea. I don’t know the situation, but this expensive idea would be last on my list. How’s parking on the street?

As mentioned correctly, the plot is quite narrow, and we want two weather-protected parking spaces. Our requirement so far is that, since we’re building with a basement, the southern area isn’t built over by a garage or carport blocking daylight from the front rooms, which might have normal windows. It’s a compromise between losing living space in the basement versus worsening living space in the basement. There was once an idea for a carport in front of the house, but that would also reduce daylight in the entrance area and didn’t seem very inviting.
We could move the house back about 1.5 meters (5 feet) and place a garage or carport in front, but that would mean additional costs for more excavation, earthworks, and support structures, and we’d lose some backyard space.
Currently, we plan, contrary to the drawing, for a garage on the north side, since paving, supports, and carport calculation would cost about 8-10,000 euros more than a simple prefabricated garage with fewer support works and a small paved area.

Arauki11 schrieb:

How’s parking on the street?

We are required by the zoning plan to provide two parking spaces, and as mentioned, we want two spots protected from snow, frost, and sun.

Really a difficult topic with parking spaces…

About the budget:

Papierturm schrieb:

The budget seems tight. It could work, but if things go badly, it could overshoot substantially (> 50,000, maybe even > 100,000).

Which cost items could potentially exceed by so much? We have calculated the house costs with a construction company offering a fixed price including earthworks but excluding excavation. We have budgeted 60,000 euros for excavation, utilities connections, building permit/planning permission, construction power/water, barriers, crane, and fencing. Additionally, there are costs for the driveway, photovoltaic system, kitchen, and materials/foundations for outdoor garden areas where we plan to do the work ourselves.

Thanks again for all the great contributions!