Hello everyone,
I know this question has been asked a million times, but I’m starting to get a bit desperate. We finally have a beautiful plot of land and could fulfill our dream.
Brief overview:
Plot: 760m² (8,180 sq ft), slight slope (1.5m (5 feet) drop over 30m (98 feet)), bordering public roads to the north and west, neighbor properties to the east and south.
House: about 160m² (1,722 sq ft), with a bay window in the living room increasing the space to 180m² (1,938 sq ft) + basement, knee wall about 90cm (35 inches) with a 43-48° pitched roof.
Total budget (excluding the land): approx. 700,000€ (100,000 basement, 100,000 additional construction costs, 500,000 house)
Prefabricated house?
I used to be quite sure that a prefabricated house was the right choice. But after visiting a few manufacturers, I really don’t know anymore – absolutely uncertain.
Most prefab companies disqualified themselves early on, leaving us with only two to consider. Right after the first appointment, the manufacturer I had been following for years (Bien-Zenker) also disqualified themselves – especially surprising since we know two families who built successfully and are quite satisfied there.
For those interested in some details:
For us, a basement was always a must, but instead of respecting this wish, we had to justify it multiple times. Why? Well, if we save on the basement and invest more in the house, the commission is bigger – also, the basement at this manufacturer is subcontracted externally. Not a good basis for trust, in my opinion.
We also want a Smart Home with a manufacturer-independent KNX system, whereas we kept being offered the closed standard system of one single manufacturer... Even though we came with a rough floor plan sketch, we were just given a catalogue to pick a floor plan from – supposedly as a starting point. These are just a few examples.
Others have repeatedly caught our attention with unprofessional bait offers promoting non-existing building plots and trying to get us to sign a contract before mediation (once we fell for it but canceled with a lawyer’s help) or bombarded us with at least three emails per week after expressing interest – pretty desperate, if you ask me...
So, solid construction instead?
On the other hand, the choice of companies for solid (masonry/concrete) houses seems quite limited here. One wanted payment right after the second appointment (without architectural planning or anything), another simply doesn’t respond (after referring me to info@... during a two-minute phone call). When asking acquaintances who have built solid houses, the response is always the same: “Please don’t use ours – it was a disaster,” including walls that aren’t even 90° or cables running straight through windows...
The last two remaining companies (both building single-family homes) are very closely linked, use the same subcontractors and architect, and share staff among each other. We inquired with one of them, and this was the only one who at least took some time on the phone with us but wanted us to have a soil report done immediately, even though we don’t yet know where exactly on the plot the house or basement will be located – doesn’t really make sense.
Also, their costs seem quite high at about 3,000 to 3,500€ per m² (about $275 to $320 per sq ft) without basement, KNX, LAN wiring, or any other extras included (our comparison for prefab was between 2,500 and 2,800€ per m² (about $230 to $260), including basement and LAN), so with the 180m² (1,938 sq ft) we probably won’t make it...
So, prefab house after all?
Today we had the appointment with the second and last prefabricated house manufacturer on our shortlist (tada: Schwörerhaus), and the initial conversation left a good impression. A basement is no problem with Schwörerhaus since it comes from their own production and doesn’t affect the commission.
However, we were told that no electrical wiring is installed in the basement (or only at an unaffordable extra cost) and it’s best to do that yourself during a certain phase of construction. They suggested simply coming to the site on weekends (when no one is there) and doing it yourself – the tools would be provided after a brief arrangement. Uh-huh... Do you get that in writing? No. Is that professional? Doesn’t sound like it!
Also, the model house seems very noisy (this is also reported online), although they say with a 6,000€ (about $6,500) impact sound insulation it is supposed to be very different – but you can’t really verify that. When our little one jumped in the upstairs kid’s room, even the wardrobe shook and a lamp downstairs rattled.
The air heating system with ventilation and heat exchanger initially seemed convincing, although I don’t really know much about it and was already advised against it since air doesn’t absorb much energy. Also, the outlets are heated additionally with an “electric heater” – is that efficient? I simply don’t know...
The biggest blow came at the end when we were told that the house could only be completed in at least two years. Apparently, a certain planning review by the architect would take nine months (3 months planning, 1 month for building permit/planning permission, 9 months for this weird review, around 8 months manufacturing, then the finishing work). What happened to prefab houses being quicker?! Sounds odd and they wouldn’t or couldn’t explain further. Anyone who can build faster “is rather unreliable, might go bankrupt during construction and just needs the money.” Strange that you find much shorter timelines online – even from Schwörerhaus.
Besides the fact that this doesn’t fit our plans at all (our little one starts school in 1.5 years and we are moving 30km (19 miles) away – September next year would be ideal), it will also be tricky with financing. While only 10% is required for planning and the remaining 90% on completion and handover, you either take out a loan early and pay provisioning fees for such a long period, or you take the risk of not knowing how interest rates will develop over the next two years.
There are also many questions that no one really wants to answer:
Can you use air heating with a solid house too, or is underfloor heating more sensible? Can you achieve a KfW standard (German energy efficiency rating) and under which conditions/costs? Apparently, nobody knows much about KNX, etc.
The most helpful was a phone call with an architect who strongly recommends solid construction (due to local providers and higher flexibility) but is also involved with planning commissions from the two closely linked solid building companies, so his objectivity is somewhat questionable. He was also annoyed that we don’t want to align the garage flush with the neighbor’s property line, as it is supposed to be attached directly to the house and the boundary runs at a slight angle, meaning our house would stand crooked on the plot with a lot of wasted space. “But garages are ALWAYS built flush with the boundary” – phew...
Are we going about this the wrong way? Unfortunately, I don’t have anyone to discuss this with, and I’m starting to feel like I’m stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils. Of course, problems always occur when building and not everything ever runs smoothly – no question. And of course, many tough decisions have to be made. But I didn’t expect the very beginning to be this exhausting.
I’m very grateful for any tips, clarifications, advice, or anything else, as right now we keep going in circles and making no progress. Maybe you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best?!
Best regards,
Daniel
I know this question has been asked a million times, but I’m starting to get a bit desperate. We finally have a beautiful plot of land and could fulfill our dream.
Brief overview:
Plot: 760m² (8,180 sq ft), slight slope (1.5m (5 feet) drop over 30m (98 feet)), bordering public roads to the north and west, neighbor properties to the east and south.
House: about 160m² (1,722 sq ft), with a bay window in the living room increasing the space to 180m² (1,938 sq ft) + basement, knee wall about 90cm (35 inches) with a 43-48° pitched roof.
Total budget (excluding the land): approx. 700,000€ (100,000 basement, 100,000 additional construction costs, 500,000 house)
Prefabricated house?
I used to be quite sure that a prefabricated house was the right choice. But after visiting a few manufacturers, I really don’t know anymore – absolutely uncertain.
Most prefab companies disqualified themselves early on, leaving us with only two to consider. Right after the first appointment, the manufacturer I had been following for years (Bien-Zenker) also disqualified themselves – especially surprising since we know two families who built successfully and are quite satisfied there.
For those interested in some details:
For us, a basement was always a must, but instead of respecting this wish, we had to justify it multiple times. Why? Well, if we save on the basement and invest more in the house, the commission is bigger – also, the basement at this manufacturer is subcontracted externally. Not a good basis for trust, in my opinion.
We also want a Smart Home with a manufacturer-independent KNX system, whereas we kept being offered the closed standard system of one single manufacturer... Even though we came with a rough floor plan sketch, we were just given a catalogue to pick a floor plan from – supposedly as a starting point. These are just a few examples.
Others have repeatedly caught our attention with unprofessional bait offers promoting non-existing building plots and trying to get us to sign a contract before mediation (once we fell for it but canceled with a lawyer’s help) or bombarded us with at least three emails per week after expressing interest – pretty desperate, if you ask me...
So, solid construction instead?
On the other hand, the choice of companies for solid (masonry/concrete) houses seems quite limited here. One wanted payment right after the second appointment (without architectural planning or anything), another simply doesn’t respond (after referring me to info@... during a two-minute phone call). When asking acquaintances who have built solid houses, the response is always the same: “Please don’t use ours – it was a disaster,” including walls that aren’t even 90° or cables running straight through windows...
The last two remaining companies (both building single-family homes) are very closely linked, use the same subcontractors and architect, and share staff among each other. We inquired with one of them, and this was the only one who at least took some time on the phone with us but wanted us to have a soil report done immediately, even though we don’t yet know where exactly on the plot the house or basement will be located – doesn’t really make sense.
Also, their costs seem quite high at about 3,000 to 3,500€ per m² (about $275 to $320 per sq ft) without basement, KNX, LAN wiring, or any other extras included (our comparison for prefab was between 2,500 and 2,800€ per m² (about $230 to $260), including basement and LAN), so with the 180m² (1,938 sq ft) we probably won’t make it...
So, prefab house after all?
Today we had the appointment with the second and last prefabricated house manufacturer on our shortlist (tada: Schwörerhaus), and the initial conversation left a good impression. A basement is no problem with Schwörerhaus since it comes from their own production and doesn’t affect the commission.
However, we were told that no electrical wiring is installed in the basement (or only at an unaffordable extra cost) and it’s best to do that yourself during a certain phase of construction. They suggested simply coming to the site on weekends (when no one is there) and doing it yourself – the tools would be provided after a brief arrangement. Uh-huh... Do you get that in writing? No. Is that professional? Doesn’t sound like it!
Also, the model house seems very noisy (this is also reported online), although they say with a 6,000€ (about $6,500) impact sound insulation it is supposed to be very different – but you can’t really verify that. When our little one jumped in the upstairs kid’s room, even the wardrobe shook and a lamp downstairs rattled.
The air heating system with ventilation and heat exchanger initially seemed convincing, although I don’t really know much about it and was already advised against it since air doesn’t absorb much energy. Also, the outlets are heated additionally with an “electric heater” – is that efficient? I simply don’t know...
The biggest blow came at the end when we were told that the house could only be completed in at least two years. Apparently, a certain planning review by the architect would take nine months (3 months planning, 1 month for building permit/planning permission, 9 months for this weird review, around 8 months manufacturing, then the finishing work). What happened to prefab houses being quicker?! Sounds odd and they wouldn’t or couldn’t explain further. Anyone who can build faster “is rather unreliable, might go bankrupt during construction and just needs the money.” Strange that you find much shorter timelines online – even from Schwörerhaus.
Besides the fact that this doesn’t fit our plans at all (our little one starts school in 1.5 years and we are moving 30km (19 miles) away – September next year would be ideal), it will also be tricky with financing. While only 10% is required for planning and the remaining 90% on completion and handover, you either take out a loan early and pay provisioning fees for such a long period, or you take the risk of not knowing how interest rates will develop over the next two years.
There are also many questions that no one really wants to answer:
Can you use air heating with a solid house too, or is underfloor heating more sensible? Can you achieve a KfW standard (German energy efficiency rating) and under which conditions/costs? Apparently, nobody knows much about KNX, etc.
The most helpful was a phone call with an architect who strongly recommends solid construction (due to local providers and higher flexibility) but is also involved with planning commissions from the two closely linked solid building companies, so his objectivity is somewhat questionable. He was also annoyed that we don’t want to align the garage flush with the neighbor’s property line, as it is supposed to be attached directly to the house and the boundary runs at a slight angle, meaning our house would stand crooked on the plot with a lot of wasted space. “But garages are ALWAYS built flush with the boundary” – phew...
Are we going about this the wrong way? Unfortunately, I don’t have anyone to discuss this with, and I’m starting to feel like I’m stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils. Of course, problems always occur when building and not everything ever runs smoothly – no question. And of course, many tough decisions have to be made. But I didn’t expect the very beginning to be this exhausting.
I’m very grateful for any tips, clarifications, advice, or anything else, as right now we keep going in circles and making no progress. Maybe you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best?!
Best regards,
Daniel
N
nordanney26 Apr 2024 14:21@Questie
Try searching the forum for posts by @11ant. Keywords include "Weichenstellung" (setting the course), "Teigruhe" (dough resting), or "A homebuilding roadmap for you too: the HOAI phase model!" (you can also find related posts online).
This way, you can gather a lot of valuable insights.
Try searching the forum for posts by @11ant. Keywords include "Weichenstellung" (setting the course), "Teigruhe" (dough resting), or "A homebuilding roadmap for you too: the HOAI phase model!" (you can also find related posts online).
This way, you can gather a lot of valuable insights.
nordanney schrieb:
Ok. But this mindset also stems from a bias against timber frame construction and isn’t based on facts. Timber framing also offers several advantages compared to solid construction. Well, that’s also a bias. We’ve already had three water pipe bursts – that’s something I don’t want to experience with wood. Just an example.
What do you mean by "too small"? What are your requirements that it absolutely must be 180 sq m (1,937 sq ft)? Don’t just fixate on size – it costs money and doesn’t necessarily mean everything. Ok, I guess I need to justify the size now... We currently have a large living room of 36 sq m (387 sq ft) and have furniture that should fit similarly into the new house. We also have a projector that needs an appropriate distance (about 6 meters (20 feet)), and yes – that will go in the living room and shouldn’t just hang somewhere in the middle of the room. We often have guests, sometimes up to 12 people who want to sit together somewhere. We have already designed the dining area so it can be extended into the living room. We also enjoy cooking a lot, have the necessary appliances, etc., and want an island in the kitchen.
Additionally, the ground floor should include an office of at least 12 sq m (129 sq ft), a guest WC with a large shower for later years, and of course a pantry.
With a house of 145 sq m (1,560 sq ft), we would be downsizing, which is surely not the goal.
If I only went by what is absolutely necessary, a 60 sq m (646 sq ft) rental apartment would be enough, since a roof over your head, a full fridge, some clothes, and maybe running water are all you need to survive.
But if I’m investing a total of 1,000,000 Euro (not to mention the land costs of 300,000 Euro), and not choosing from a huge selection of plots, I might have different expectations than just the bare minimum...
Rübe1 schrieb:
I think you need to rephrase more: What is a prefabricated house, and what is a solid structure?
Solid structure: Aerated concrete? Poroton, lots of air with clay around? Concrete blocks with a lot of expanded polystyrene for thermal insulation?
Prefabricated house: thin walls with plaster and plaster base made of expanded polystyrene?
Or no plastic vapor barrier but a breathable wall construction? That may be the case. I can’t tell you all of that. Do I have to know and research all of this myself? If so, we can forget it because I simply don’t have the time, and everything has its pros and cons anyway. And if I knew all of this, I could just start my own construction company. I expect experience from a professional building company that can advise accordingly.
For me, a solid structure means the classic brick-and-mortar construction, while a timber frame means a timber frame—regardless of insulation or any other materials used.
N
nordanney26 Apr 2024 14:49Questie schrieb:
Well, that’s also a bias. We already experienced three water pipe bursts – I don’t want to go through that with wood. Just an example. Bias...
Water pipe bursts in new builds are almost impossible. Besides, it’s not a big deal with wood either, since there are appropriate service shafts. Access is much easier than in solid construction. Just an example...
Questie schrieb:
It probably won’t help me if I have to justify the size now... No, it’s not about the size as a number. It’s about the room layout.
Questie schrieb:
We currently already have a large living room of 36m² That is not large, just pleasantly manageable.
Questie schrieb:
Also a projector that needs an appropriate distance (about 6 meters) Off topic: poor technology – also off topic: why not have a nice home theater room in the basement?
Questie schrieb:
It will be in the living room too and shouldn’t hang somewhere in the middle of the room. Also, we often have guests, and sometimes 12 people quickly want to sit together somewhere. We have already designed the dining area so it can be extended into the living room. We also really enjoy cooking, have the corresponding appliances, etc., and want a kitchen island.
Additionally, a minimum 12m² (130sq ft) office should be set up on the ground floor, as well as a guest WC with a large shower for later years and, of course, a pantry. Please set all that aside. It’s not just about square meters. It’s about the room program. Pure size alone doesn’t make a house beautiful.
For example, 145m² (1,560 sq ft) is enough for a living room and kitchen with island that suits your needs, four bedrooms (or office, or other uses), and two bathrooms. This is also possible with 170m² (1,830 sq ft) without the rooms actually getting bigger or more usable. That’s my point. You don’t have a real plan yet for the house or a clear idea of what is possible. Only an architect can show you that.
Questie schrieb:
Yes, that may be true. I can’t tell you all that. Do I have to know all that and research and figure everything out by myself? No – again: look for the posts I mentioned and find someone who has this knowledge and applies it exclusively for you (an architect). A sales representative at a show home cannot provide that. Once you have signed with them, they disappear as a contact – just like their promises. They have done their job, and others take over.
Questie schrieb:
Otherwise: for me, solid construction means classic stone-on-stone, And even there, you can choose from many different options depending on your budget or ecological preferences (insulation yes/no, type of insulation, etc.).
Questie schrieb:
Do I have to know all of this and research and figure it out myself? If so, we’ll cancel it, because I simply don’t have the time and everything always has pros and cons. You don’t have to. I know several people who relied heavily on their general contractor or the hired tradespeople. For some it went better, for others worse.
For me, it was helpful to spend a lot of time upfront looking around, reading, and comparing, so I had a rough idea of what we wanted independently of the providers and had some background knowledge when making decisions (especially regarding building services).
At first, we just visited model home parks, and luckily then the lockdown happened. We used the time to plan the house with an architect. With the plans in hand, we went out again, this time to local (or almost local) companies. In the end, it was the local carpentry company that built our house as the general contractor. We have been and still are very satisfied.
nordanney schrieb:
Bias…
Water pipe bursts in new constructions are almost impossible. Besides, with wood construction, it’s not that critical because there are dedicated utility shafts. Access is much easier than with solid construction. Just one example…Is that really the case? After years of searching for a house (getting a plot here is almost impossible), we’ve come across several with water damage—whether from faulty insulation or water pipe bursts. In a risk analysis, I would consider that a black swan event.And I actually think it’s a myth that this isn’t that serious. It’s mentioned everywhere and also makes sense logically. Wood absorbs much more moisture, and if it warps, that’s a real problem. Plus, about 20% already have mold issues.
No, it’s not about size alone. It’s about the room layout.Well, the existing kitchen is 3.5 by 3.5m (11.5 by 11.5 feet) with access to the pantry, so at least 4 by 3.5m (13 by 11.5 feet) with a kitchen island and enough clearance around, you need or want about 16m² (170 sq ft). No matter the layout, I don’t find that excessive.The living room is planned with 42m² (450 sq ft), offering plenty of open space. The dining area depends on the table, which is 4 by 1m (13 by 3 feet). With at least 1.5m (5 feet) clearance around it, you need about 28m² (300 sq ft). A study (as a separate room for privacy) needs about 12m² (130 sq ft), especially if you want to fit a bed occasionally. A guest bathroom with a sufficiently sized shower is at least 6m² (65 sq ft) and therefore does not meet accessibility standards for wheelchair users according to DIN.
These are all spaces that cannot be made smaller through a room layout unless you want to combine uses (for example, placing the dining table partly in the living room or kitchen). So we’re already at about 104m² (1,120 sq ft), and that doesn’t include stairs, cloakroom/entrance area, or storage rooms. If you have a basement, there’s also no usable space under the stairs.
That’s not large, just comfortably manageable.Of courseOff topic: poor technology – also off topic: why not have a nice home theater room in the basement?I always find it hard to judge without information. But could you please explain exactly what you mean by “poor technology”? The projector? Its position? That it’s mounted in the living room rather than the home theater room, even though it’s used not only for movies but almost daily? Or that we don’t want to lock ourselves in the basement every time we watch a movie together, play Nintendo/PlayStation, look at pictures, or I work on video and photo editing on the big screen? Otherwise, why not build the living room in the basement? Then the ground floor would be just for storage.Please set all that aside. It’s not just about square meters. It’s about the room layout. Pure size alone does not make a house beautiful.
For example, 145m² (1,560 sq ft) is enough for a living room + kitchen with island, four bedrooms (or office or whatever) + two bathrooms that suit you. You can also do this with 170m² (1,830 sq ft) without the rooms becoming larger or more functional. That’s what I want to point out. You don’t even have a real plan for the house or an idea of what’s possible yet. Only an architect can show you that.Sure, you can cram 10 bedrooms of 20m² (215 sq ft) each if you put just a cot in every room without a wardrobe, or call a space with nine partitions 10 rooms in your layout. A bedroom is a separate room and should be about 16m² (170 sq ft) with a double bed and a wardrobe. And with knee walls of 90cm (35 inches), that’s already quite tight.No—again: look for the posts I mentioned and find someone with the right expertise who will work exclusively for you (an architect). A salesperson at a model home exhibition cannot do that. Once you have signed with them, they are no longer your contact person—just as their promises disappear. They have done their job, and others take over.
And even there, you can choose from many variants depending on your budget or ecological preferences (insulation yes/no, type of insulation, etc.).Yes, I think that is indeed the right advice. Now that we have, I believe, ruled out prefabricated houses (that is, system manufacturers or whatever the correct term is), there is nothing stopping us from going to an architect in the hope that they will guide us through the building project.One more question: Is it more sensible to look for an architect near the building site or near your current home? Does one see each other more often on-site or in the office?
Thanks so far!
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