Hello everyone,
I know this question has been asked a million times, but I’m starting to get a bit desperate. We finally have a beautiful plot of land and could fulfill our dream.
Brief overview:
Plot: 760m² (8,180 sq ft), slight slope (1.5m (5 feet) drop over 30m (98 feet)), bordering public roads to the north and west, neighbor properties to the east and south.
House: about 160m² (1,722 sq ft), with a bay window in the living room increasing the space to 180m² (1,938 sq ft) + basement, knee wall about 90cm (35 inches) with a 43-48° pitched roof.
Total budget (excluding the land): approx. 700,000€ (100,000 basement, 100,000 additional construction costs, 500,000 house)
Prefabricated house?
I used to be quite sure that a prefabricated house was the right choice. But after visiting a few manufacturers, I really don’t know anymore – absolutely uncertain.
Most prefab companies disqualified themselves early on, leaving us with only two to consider. Right after the first appointment, the manufacturer I had been following for years (Bien-Zenker) also disqualified themselves – especially surprising since we know two families who built successfully and are quite satisfied there.
For those interested in some details:
For us, a basement was always a must, but instead of respecting this wish, we had to justify it multiple times. Why? Well, if we save on the basement and invest more in the house, the commission is bigger – also, the basement at this manufacturer is subcontracted externally. Not a good basis for trust, in my opinion.
We also want a Smart Home with a manufacturer-independent KNX system, whereas we kept being offered the closed standard system of one single manufacturer... Even though we came with a rough floor plan sketch, we were just given a catalogue to pick a floor plan from – supposedly as a starting point. These are just a few examples.
Others have repeatedly caught our attention with unprofessional bait offers promoting non-existing building plots and trying to get us to sign a contract before mediation (once we fell for it but canceled with a lawyer’s help) or bombarded us with at least three emails per week after expressing interest – pretty desperate, if you ask me...
So, solid construction instead?
On the other hand, the choice of companies for solid (masonry/concrete) houses seems quite limited here. One wanted payment right after the second appointment (without architectural planning or anything), another simply doesn’t respond (after referring me to info@... during a two-minute phone call). When asking acquaintances who have built solid houses, the response is always the same: “Please don’t use ours – it was a disaster,” including walls that aren’t even 90° or cables running straight through windows...
The last two remaining companies (both building single-family homes) are very closely linked, use the same subcontractors and architect, and share staff among each other. We inquired with one of them, and this was the only one who at least took some time on the phone with us but wanted us to have a soil report done immediately, even though we don’t yet know where exactly on the plot the house or basement will be located – doesn’t really make sense.
Also, their costs seem quite high at about 3,000 to 3,500€ per m² (about $275 to $320 per sq ft) without basement, KNX, LAN wiring, or any other extras included (our comparison for prefab was between 2,500 and 2,800€ per m² (about $230 to $260), including basement and LAN), so with the 180m² (1,938 sq ft) we probably won’t make it...
So, prefab house after all?
Today we had the appointment with the second and last prefabricated house manufacturer on our shortlist (tada: Schwörerhaus), and the initial conversation left a good impression. A basement is no problem with Schwörerhaus since it comes from their own production and doesn’t affect the commission.
However, we were told that no electrical wiring is installed in the basement (or only at an unaffordable extra cost) and it’s best to do that yourself during a certain phase of construction. They suggested simply coming to the site on weekends (when no one is there) and doing it yourself – the tools would be provided after a brief arrangement. Uh-huh... Do you get that in writing? No. Is that professional? Doesn’t sound like it!
Also, the model house seems very noisy (this is also reported online), although they say with a 6,000€ (about $6,500) impact sound insulation it is supposed to be very different – but you can’t really verify that. When our little one jumped in the upstairs kid’s room, even the wardrobe shook and a lamp downstairs rattled.
The air heating system with ventilation and heat exchanger initially seemed convincing, although I don’t really know much about it and was already advised against it since air doesn’t absorb much energy. Also, the outlets are heated additionally with an “electric heater” – is that efficient? I simply don’t know...
The biggest blow came at the end when we were told that the house could only be completed in at least two years. Apparently, a certain planning review by the architect would take nine months (3 months planning, 1 month for building permit/planning permission, 9 months for this weird review, around 8 months manufacturing, then the finishing work). What happened to prefab houses being quicker?! Sounds odd and they wouldn’t or couldn’t explain further. Anyone who can build faster “is rather unreliable, might go bankrupt during construction and just needs the money.” Strange that you find much shorter timelines online – even from Schwörerhaus.
Besides the fact that this doesn’t fit our plans at all (our little one starts school in 1.5 years and we are moving 30km (19 miles) away – September next year would be ideal), it will also be tricky with financing. While only 10% is required for planning and the remaining 90% on completion and handover, you either take out a loan early and pay provisioning fees for such a long period, or you take the risk of not knowing how interest rates will develop over the next two years.
There are also many questions that no one really wants to answer:
Can you use air heating with a solid house too, or is underfloor heating more sensible? Can you achieve a KfW standard (German energy efficiency rating) and under which conditions/costs? Apparently, nobody knows much about KNX, etc.
The most helpful was a phone call with an architect who strongly recommends solid construction (due to local providers and higher flexibility) but is also involved with planning commissions from the two closely linked solid building companies, so his objectivity is somewhat questionable. He was also annoyed that we don’t want to align the garage flush with the neighbor’s property line, as it is supposed to be attached directly to the house and the boundary runs at a slight angle, meaning our house would stand crooked on the plot with a lot of wasted space. “But garages are ALWAYS built flush with the boundary” – phew...
Are we going about this the wrong way? Unfortunately, I don’t have anyone to discuss this with, and I’m starting to feel like I’m stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils. Of course, problems always occur when building and not everything ever runs smoothly – no question. And of course, many tough decisions have to be made. But I didn’t expect the very beginning to be this exhausting.
I’m very grateful for any tips, clarifications, advice, or anything else, as right now we keep going in circles and making no progress. Maybe you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best?!
Best regards,
Daniel
I know this question has been asked a million times, but I’m starting to get a bit desperate. We finally have a beautiful plot of land and could fulfill our dream.
Brief overview:
Plot: 760m² (8,180 sq ft), slight slope (1.5m (5 feet) drop over 30m (98 feet)), bordering public roads to the north and west, neighbor properties to the east and south.
House: about 160m² (1,722 sq ft), with a bay window in the living room increasing the space to 180m² (1,938 sq ft) + basement, knee wall about 90cm (35 inches) with a 43-48° pitched roof.
Total budget (excluding the land): approx. 700,000€ (100,000 basement, 100,000 additional construction costs, 500,000 house)
Prefabricated house?
I used to be quite sure that a prefabricated house was the right choice. But after visiting a few manufacturers, I really don’t know anymore – absolutely uncertain.
Most prefab companies disqualified themselves early on, leaving us with only two to consider. Right after the first appointment, the manufacturer I had been following for years (Bien-Zenker) also disqualified themselves – especially surprising since we know two families who built successfully and are quite satisfied there.
For those interested in some details:
For us, a basement was always a must, but instead of respecting this wish, we had to justify it multiple times. Why? Well, if we save on the basement and invest more in the house, the commission is bigger – also, the basement at this manufacturer is subcontracted externally. Not a good basis for trust, in my opinion.
We also want a Smart Home with a manufacturer-independent KNX system, whereas we kept being offered the closed standard system of one single manufacturer... Even though we came with a rough floor plan sketch, we were just given a catalogue to pick a floor plan from – supposedly as a starting point. These are just a few examples.
Others have repeatedly caught our attention with unprofessional bait offers promoting non-existing building plots and trying to get us to sign a contract before mediation (once we fell for it but canceled with a lawyer’s help) or bombarded us with at least three emails per week after expressing interest – pretty desperate, if you ask me...
So, solid construction instead?
On the other hand, the choice of companies for solid (masonry/concrete) houses seems quite limited here. One wanted payment right after the second appointment (without architectural planning or anything), another simply doesn’t respond (after referring me to info@... during a two-minute phone call). When asking acquaintances who have built solid houses, the response is always the same: “Please don’t use ours – it was a disaster,” including walls that aren’t even 90° or cables running straight through windows...
The last two remaining companies (both building single-family homes) are very closely linked, use the same subcontractors and architect, and share staff among each other. We inquired with one of them, and this was the only one who at least took some time on the phone with us but wanted us to have a soil report done immediately, even though we don’t yet know where exactly on the plot the house or basement will be located – doesn’t really make sense.
Also, their costs seem quite high at about 3,000 to 3,500€ per m² (about $275 to $320 per sq ft) without basement, KNX, LAN wiring, or any other extras included (our comparison for prefab was between 2,500 and 2,800€ per m² (about $230 to $260), including basement and LAN), so with the 180m² (1,938 sq ft) we probably won’t make it...
So, prefab house after all?
Today we had the appointment with the second and last prefabricated house manufacturer on our shortlist (tada: Schwörerhaus), and the initial conversation left a good impression. A basement is no problem with Schwörerhaus since it comes from their own production and doesn’t affect the commission.
However, we were told that no electrical wiring is installed in the basement (or only at an unaffordable extra cost) and it’s best to do that yourself during a certain phase of construction. They suggested simply coming to the site on weekends (when no one is there) and doing it yourself – the tools would be provided after a brief arrangement. Uh-huh... Do you get that in writing? No. Is that professional? Doesn’t sound like it!
Also, the model house seems very noisy (this is also reported online), although they say with a 6,000€ (about $6,500) impact sound insulation it is supposed to be very different – but you can’t really verify that. When our little one jumped in the upstairs kid’s room, even the wardrobe shook and a lamp downstairs rattled.
The air heating system with ventilation and heat exchanger initially seemed convincing, although I don’t really know much about it and was already advised against it since air doesn’t absorb much energy. Also, the outlets are heated additionally with an “electric heater” – is that efficient? I simply don’t know...
The biggest blow came at the end when we were told that the house could only be completed in at least two years. Apparently, a certain planning review by the architect would take nine months (3 months planning, 1 month for building permit/planning permission, 9 months for this weird review, around 8 months manufacturing, then the finishing work). What happened to prefab houses being quicker?! Sounds odd and they wouldn’t or couldn’t explain further. Anyone who can build faster “is rather unreliable, might go bankrupt during construction and just needs the money.” Strange that you find much shorter timelines online – even from Schwörerhaus.
Besides the fact that this doesn’t fit our plans at all (our little one starts school in 1.5 years and we are moving 30km (19 miles) away – September next year would be ideal), it will also be tricky with financing. While only 10% is required for planning and the remaining 90% on completion and handover, you either take out a loan early and pay provisioning fees for such a long period, or you take the risk of not knowing how interest rates will develop over the next two years.
There are also many questions that no one really wants to answer:
Can you use air heating with a solid house too, or is underfloor heating more sensible? Can you achieve a KfW standard (German energy efficiency rating) and under which conditions/costs? Apparently, nobody knows much about KNX, etc.
The most helpful was a phone call with an architect who strongly recommends solid construction (due to local providers and higher flexibility) but is also involved with planning commissions from the two closely linked solid building companies, so his objectivity is somewhat questionable. He was also annoyed that we don’t want to align the garage flush with the neighbor’s property line, as it is supposed to be attached directly to the house and the boundary runs at a slight angle, meaning our house would stand crooked on the plot with a lot of wasted space. “But garages are ALWAYS built flush with the boundary” – phew...
Are we going about this the wrong way? Unfortunately, I don’t have anyone to discuss this with, and I’m starting to feel like I’m stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils. Of course, problems always occur when building and not everything ever runs smoothly – no question. And of course, many tough decisions have to be made. But I didn’t expect the very beginning to be this exhausting.
I’m very grateful for any tips, clarifications, advice, or anything else, as right now we keep going in circles and making no progress. Maybe you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best?!
Best regards,
Daniel
D
DaGoodness26 Apr 2024 10:35At that time, we also visited many prefab home exhibitions and trade fairs and spoke with numerous homebuilding companies. However, we always felt somewhat uneasy during conversations with the sales representatives. Especially when we asked about the budget, we were often laughed at and immediately told, "You can forget about that."
In the end, based on a recommendation, we decided to work with a local architect who collaborates with various regional contractors. The architect’s cost planning was precise, and during construction, we were able to discuss everything in detail with each trade on-site.
We never regretted this decision and are still glad we handled it that way. We remain in contact with several of the contractors, and over time, they have been entrusted with additional work. A few years later, the roofing company installed a skylight for us and sealed the terrace roof that was added later.
The tiler visited twice in the meantime and, even after six years, carried out minor repairs free of charge. In return, two weeks ago, he replaced the laminate flooring, which we had installed ourselves in the entire ground floor, with tiles (even though he is certainly not the cheapest).
Many of the tradespeople come from our town, and we often run into them again at festivals or while shopping.
In the end, based on a recommendation, we decided to work with a local architect who collaborates with various regional contractors. The architect’s cost planning was precise, and during construction, we were able to discuss everything in detail with each trade on-site.
We never regretted this decision and are still glad we handled it that way. We remain in contact with several of the contractors, and over time, they have been entrusted with additional work. A few years later, the roofing company installed a skylight for us and sealed the terrace roof that was added later.
The tiler visited twice in the meantime and, even after six years, carried out minor repairs free of charge. In return, two weeks ago, he replaced the laminate flooring, which we had installed ourselves in the entire ground floor, with tiles (even though he is certainly not the cheapest).
Many of the tradespeople come from our town, and we often run into them again at festivals or while shopping.
nordanney schrieb:
@11ant will definitely help you as well.
Otherwise, you are mixing up a lot of things.
First of all, a prefab house can also be a solid construction. Yes, that is correct. I wouldn’t recommend timber frame construction with small, unknown builders—I trust the bigger companies more (and those are almost exclusively prefab manufacturers) for their experience. I couldn’t find any providers of solid prefab houses here, so for us the definition (even if not entirely accurate) is: prefab house = timber, solid house = local construction company.
What I don’t see from you is a clear strategy. Who is actually designing the house according to your wishes? If you want it to be customized (and with a sensible floor plan), basically only an architect remains. Well, we were told by several sources here (including an architect) that it’s difficult to transfer an architect’s design to a prefab house because of many specifics, such as wall construction. So it makes more sense to plan directly with the architect familiar with the respective manufacturer.
From this, we concluded that this choice should at least be made in advance?
The draftsman of the general contractor (GC) plans for you as well, but it doesn’t matter to them whether the floor plan makes sense or not. They don’t care about any special requests either—you pay for everything, and they plan according to the GC’s interests. The architect plans exclusively for you. Whether in the end you get a prefab house, a house from the GC, or a project with individual trade contracts, whether it’s a solid house or timber frame, remains to be seen. But as said, you’ll get plenty of feedback on that. But if I hire an architect, I pay them anyway, right? And if the GC hires the architect or commissions a plan, can’t I also say that I don’t like it and choose another one? I don’t quite understand the argument here.
At least the budget is adequate (for a nice house). Plan with the minimum figures of €3,000 per square meter (square meter) of living space plus additional costs plus basement plus garage plus landscaping. Then add a 10% contingency, and you’re ready for the house. If I understand the calculation correctly, our house would be rather small then... With €700,000 minus 10% contingency = €635,000 minus €200,000 (additional costs, basement, garage, landscaping) = €435,000 / €3,000 = 145 m² (1560 sq ft). Or where is my mistake?
Papierturm schrieb:
I wouldn’t lump providers and sellers together [...] Whether a relationship that was strained from the start is a good foundation for collaboration is, of course, also questionable. Yes, that’s exactly the point. The seller makes a calculation on which we base our contract. And we’re not talking about just a few dollars. No matter how good the manufacturer might be, if there are issues at that stage, it’s unlikely anything positive will come of it – even if it’s just that in the end we don’t have a single power outlet or light in the basement because it’s not that simple to quickly run cables unnoticed on the construction site.
(Of course, an air-to-water heat pump costs more than an air-to-air heat pump, but to me that’s worth it – there have already been various discussions, more or less appreciative, about this. Briefly, why I don’t want an air-to-air heat pump: commitment to this one system, closed system with no local support, mixed to poor feedback from the surrounding area. For me, this led to the conclusion that I’d rather rely on an air-to-water heat pump.) Thanks, that basically matches my research too...
There’s no construction project where nothing goes wrong. The question is how companies handle problems! Are they solved? Are they delayed? Are they passed on? That’s what needs to be asked. Of course there are always problems – but naturally, the discussions went beyond that one question. And no, the problems were not resolved satisfactorily. A customer who has a problem with a product and is successfully helped is more satisfied than one who never had problems. If I am strongly advised against a provider…
Here, I would strongly recommend asking for concrete conditions.
For now, just some current figures, which can change daily: At the moment, I get the impression that the general contractors aren’t really interested in a new building project… It’s already difficult to get hold of anyone or arrange an appointment. They say on the phone, “Then please write to the info@ address,” and then they don’t get back to you. Even from the general contractor I spoke to at length, there has been no response for over a week to my emails with the zoning plan, etc.
Maybe our project is unrealistic, or maybe I’m just not very likable, I don’t know...
We probably won’t pursue the KfW subsidy, but the house should still meet a certain energy standard.
Good luck! Thank you very much and thanks for your reply!
haydee schrieb:
At the beginning, we also felt completely overwhelmed.
Try smaller builders. Which part of Bavaria are you from?
Albert Haus can handle slopes, basements, and is quite customizable. You don’t hear anything bad about them.
We live in a house from them as well. We are building in Günzburg. As I said, it’s not really a steep slope; it will be leveled. But of course, I’m always grateful for any tips!
CC35BS38 schrieb:
I can only answer a small part of your question, but still: don’t install an air heating system—I would avoid that. You’re always very dependent on the technology with those; a hydronic system is much more flexible. Thanks for the confirmation. But the manufacturers, of course, insist on how great it is. They even showed us with a thermometer that the floor is 24°C (75°F) and the wall is 23°C (73°F) – no problem at all...
N
nordanney26 Apr 2024 11:52Questie schrieb:
Yes, that’s correct. I wouldn’t build timber frame construction with small, unknown builders – I trust the big ones more (and those are almost exclusively prefabricated house manufacturers) because of their experience. Big mistake! Small does not mean bad or inexperienced. Look for good references locally and from experienced builders. In that case, I would always prefer the "small" builder over the inflexible "big" one.
Questie schrieb:
Well, several sources (including an architect) told us that it is difficult to transfer an architect’s design into a prefab house because of many special features, like wall construction and so on. See previous answers. Move away from the prefab mindset. But even here it’s possible – big companies do have problems, though. See also the first answer.
Prefabricated components require—which is the only "problem"—good planning. Nothing more, nothing less.
Questie schrieb:
So we concluded that you should at least decide on this beforehand? No. First, you need to know what the house should look like. Standardized or custom-built. Only after that can you think about other aspects like wall construction, general contractor (GC), etc. The wrong approach often leads to a dead end.
Questie schrieb:
But if I hire an architect, I pay for that anyway, right? Yes. But you pay the architect directly, and they do what you want. An architect employed by a GC or system house provider is paid by company XYZ and will (almost) exclusively represent their interests (= to get everything done as simply as possible and make a lot of money from you).
Questie schrieb:
And if the GC hires the architect or assigns the planning, can I still say it doesn’t work for me and look for someone else... I don’t quite understand that argument. Who chooses the music in a club? The customer who pays the entrance fee, or the club owner who pays the DJ? I prefer being the club owner = paying my own architect.
Questie schrieb:
Or what am I missing? No mistake. But 145 sq meters (1,560 sq ft) well planned is better than 170 sq meters (1,830 sq ft) with lots of useless circulation areas, unusable rooms, etc.
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