Hello everyone,
I know this question has been asked a million times, but I’m starting to get a bit desperate. We finally have a beautiful plot of land and could fulfill our dream.
Brief overview:
Plot: 760m² (8,180 sq ft), slight slope (1.5m (5 feet) drop over 30m (98 feet)), bordering public roads to the north and west, neighbor properties to the east and south.
House: about 160m² (1,722 sq ft), with a bay window in the living room increasing the space to 180m² (1,938 sq ft) + basement, knee wall about 90cm (35 inches) with a 43-48° pitched roof.
Total budget (excluding the land): approx. 700,000€ (100,000 basement, 100,000 additional construction costs, 500,000 house)
Prefabricated house?
I used to be quite sure that a prefabricated house was the right choice. But after visiting a few manufacturers, I really don’t know anymore – absolutely uncertain.
Most prefab companies disqualified themselves early on, leaving us with only two to consider. Right after the first appointment, the manufacturer I had been following for years (Bien-Zenker) also disqualified themselves – especially surprising since we know two families who built successfully and are quite satisfied there.
For those interested in some details:
For us, a basement was always a must, but instead of respecting this wish, we had to justify it multiple times. Why? Well, if we save on the basement and invest more in the house, the commission is bigger – also, the basement at this manufacturer is subcontracted externally. Not a good basis for trust, in my opinion.
We also want a Smart Home with a manufacturer-independent KNX system, whereas we kept being offered the closed standard system of one single manufacturer... Even though we came with a rough floor plan sketch, we were just given a catalogue to pick a floor plan from – supposedly as a starting point. These are just a few examples.
Others have repeatedly caught our attention with unprofessional bait offers promoting non-existing building plots and trying to get us to sign a contract before mediation (once we fell for it but canceled with a lawyer’s help) or bombarded us with at least three emails per week after expressing interest – pretty desperate, if you ask me...
So, solid construction instead?
On the other hand, the choice of companies for solid (masonry/concrete) houses seems quite limited here. One wanted payment right after the second appointment (without architectural planning or anything), another simply doesn’t respond (after referring me to info@... during a two-minute phone call). When asking acquaintances who have built solid houses, the response is always the same: “Please don’t use ours – it was a disaster,” including walls that aren’t even 90° or cables running straight through windows...
The last two remaining companies (both building single-family homes) are very closely linked, use the same subcontractors and architect, and share staff among each other. We inquired with one of them, and this was the only one who at least took some time on the phone with us but wanted us to have a soil report done immediately, even though we don’t yet know where exactly on the plot the house or basement will be located – doesn’t really make sense.
Also, their costs seem quite high at about 3,000 to 3,500€ per m² (about $275 to $320 per sq ft) without basement, KNX, LAN wiring, or any other extras included (our comparison for prefab was between 2,500 and 2,800€ per m² (about $230 to $260), including basement and LAN), so with the 180m² (1,938 sq ft) we probably won’t make it...
So, prefab house after all?
Today we had the appointment with the second and last prefabricated house manufacturer on our shortlist (tada: Schwörerhaus), and the initial conversation left a good impression. A basement is no problem with Schwörerhaus since it comes from their own production and doesn’t affect the commission.
However, we were told that no electrical wiring is installed in the basement (or only at an unaffordable extra cost) and it’s best to do that yourself during a certain phase of construction. They suggested simply coming to the site on weekends (when no one is there) and doing it yourself – the tools would be provided after a brief arrangement. Uh-huh... Do you get that in writing? No. Is that professional? Doesn’t sound like it!
Also, the model house seems very noisy (this is also reported online), although they say with a 6,000€ (about $6,500) impact sound insulation it is supposed to be very different – but you can’t really verify that. When our little one jumped in the upstairs kid’s room, even the wardrobe shook and a lamp downstairs rattled.
The air heating system with ventilation and heat exchanger initially seemed convincing, although I don’t really know much about it and was already advised against it since air doesn’t absorb much energy. Also, the outlets are heated additionally with an “electric heater” – is that efficient? I simply don’t know...
The biggest blow came at the end when we were told that the house could only be completed in at least two years. Apparently, a certain planning review by the architect would take nine months (3 months planning, 1 month for building permit/planning permission, 9 months for this weird review, around 8 months manufacturing, then the finishing work). What happened to prefab houses being quicker?! Sounds odd and they wouldn’t or couldn’t explain further. Anyone who can build faster “is rather unreliable, might go bankrupt during construction and just needs the money.” Strange that you find much shorter timelines online – even from Schwörerhaus.
Besides the fact that this doesn’t fit our plans at all (our little one starts school in 1.5 years and we are moving 30km (19 miles) away – September next year would be ideal), it will also be tricky with financing. While only 10% is required for planning and the remaining 90% on completion and handover, you either take out a loan early and pay provisioning fees for such a long period, or you take the risk of not knowing how interest rates will develop over the next two years.
There are also many questions that no one really wants to answer:
Can you use air heating with a solid house too, or is underfloor heating more sensible? Can you achieve a KfW standard (German energy efficiency rating) and under which conditions/costs? Apparently, nobody knows much about KNX, etc.
The most helpful was a phone call with an architect who strongly recommends solid construction (due to local providers and higher flexibility) but is also involved with planning commissions from the two closely linked solid building companies, so his objectivity is somewhat questionable. He was also annoyed that we don’t want to align the garage flush with the neighbor’s property line, as it is supposed to be attached directly to the house and the boundary runs at a slight angle, meaning our house would stand crooked on the plot with a lot of wasted space. “But garages are ALWAYS built flush with the boundary” – phew...
Are we going about this the wrong way? Unfortunately, I don’t have anyone to discuss this with, and I’m starting to feel like I’m stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils. Of course, problems always occur when building and not everything ever runs smoothly – no question. And of course, many tough decisions have to be made. But I didn’t expect the very beginning to be this exhausting.
I’m very grateful for any tips, clarifications, advice, or anything else, as right now we keep going in circles and making no progress. Maybe you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best?!
Best regards,
Daniel
I know this question has been asked a million times, but I’m starting to get a bit desperate. We finally have a beautiful plot of land and could fulfill our dream.
Brief overview:
Plot: 760m² (8,180 sq ft), slight slope (1.5m (5 feet) drop over 30m (98 feet)), bordering public roads to the north and west, neighbor properties to the east and south.
House: about 160m² (1,722 sq ft), with a bay window in the living room increasing the space to 180m² (1,938 sq ft) + basement, knee wall about 90cm (35 inches) with a 43-48° pitched roof.
Total budget (excluding the land): approx. 700,000€ (100,000 basement, 100,000 additional construction costs, 500,000 house)
Prefabricated house?
I used to be quite sure that a prefabricated house was the right choice. But after visiting a few manufacturers, I really don’t know anymore – absolutely uncertain.
Most prefab companies disqualified themselves early on, leaving us with only two to consider. Right after the first appointment, the manufacturer I had been following for years (Bien-Zenker) also disqualified themselves – especially surprising since we know two families who built successfully and are quite satisfied there.
For those interested in some details:
For us, a basement was always a must, but instead of respecting this wish, we had to justify it multiple times. Why? Well, if we save on the basement and invest more in the house, the commission is bigger – also, the basement at this manufacturer is subcontracted externally. Not a good basis for trust, in my opinion.
We also want a Smart Home with a manufacturer-independent KNX system, whereas we kept being offered the closed standard system of one single manufacturer... Even though we came with a rough floor plan sketch, we were just given a catalogue to pick a floor plan from – supposedly as a starting point. These are just a few examples.
Others have repeatedly caught our attention with unprofessional bait offers promoting non-existing building plots and trying to get us to sign a contract before mediation (once we fell for it but canceled with a lawyer’s help) or bombarded us with at least three emails per week after expressing interest – pretty desperate, if you ask me...
So, solid construction instead?
On the other hand, the choice of companies for solid (masonry/concrete) houses seems quite limited here. One wanted payment right after the second appointment (without architectural planning or anything), another simply doesn’t respond (after referring me to info@... during a two-minute phone call). When asking acquaintances who have built solid houses, the response is always the same: “Please don’t use ours – it was a disaster,” including walls that aren’t even 90° or cables running straight through windows...
The last two remaining companies (both building single-family homes) are very closely linked, use the same subcontractors and architect, and share staff among each other. We inquired with one of them, and this was the only one who at least took some time on the phone with us but wanted us to have a soil report done immediately, even though we don’t yet know where exactly on the plot the house or basement will be located – doesn’t really make sense.
Also, their costs seem quite high at about 3,000 to 3,500€ per m² (about $275 to $320 per sq ft) without basement, KNX, LAN wiring, or any other extras included (our comparison for prefab was between 2,500 and 2,800€ per m² (about $230 to $260), including basement and LAN), so with the 180m² (1,938 sq ft) we probably won’t make it...
So, prefab house after all?
Today we had the appointment with the second and last prefabricated house manufacturer on our shortlist (tada: Schwörerhaus), and the initial conversation left a good impression. A basement is no problem with Schwörerhaus since it comes from their own production and doesn’t affect the commission.
However, we were told that no electrical wiring is installed in the basement (or only at an unaffordable extra cost) and it’s best to do that yourself during a certain phase of construction. They suggested simply coming to the site on weekends (when no one is there) and doing it yourself – the tools would be provided after a brief arrangement. Uh-huh... Do you get that in writing? No. Is that professional? Doesn’t sound like it!
Also, the model house seems very noisy (this is also reported online), although they say with a 6,000€ (about $6,500) impact sound insulation it is supposed to be very different – but you can’t really verify that. When our little one jumped in the upstairs kid’s room, even the wardrobe shook and a lamp downstairs rattled.
The air heating system with ventilation and heat exchanger initially seemed convincing, although I don’t really know much about it and was already advised against it since air doesn’t absorb much energy. Also, the outlets are heated additionally with an “electric heater” – is that efficient? I simply don’t know...
The biggest blow came at the end when we were told that the house could only be completed in at least two years. Apparently, a certain planning review by the architect would take nine months (3 months planning, 1 month for building permit/planning permission, 9 months for this weird review, around 8 months manufacturing, then the finishing work). What happened to prefab houses being quicker?! Sounds odd and they wouldn’t or couldn’t explain further. Anyone who can build faster “is rather unreliable, might go bankrupt during construction and just needs the money.” Strange that you find much shorter timelines online – even from Schwörerhaus.
Besides the fact that this doesn’t fit our plans at all (our little one starts school in 1.5 years and we are moving 30km (19 miles) away – September next year would be ideal), it will also be tricky with financing. While only 10% is required for planning and the remaining 90% on completion and handover, you either take out a loan early and pay provisioning fees for such a long period, or you take the risk of not knowing how interest rates will develop over the next two years.
There are also many questions that no one really wants to answer:
Can you use air heating with a solid house too, or is underfloor heating more sensible? Can you achieve a KfW standard (German energy efficiency rating) and under which conditions/costs? Apparently, nobody knows much about KNX, etc.
The most helpful was a phone call with an architect who strongly recommends solid construction (due to local providers and higher flexibility) but is also involved with planning commissions from the two closely linked solid building companies, so his objectivity is somewhat questionable. He was also annoyed that we don’t want to align the garage flush with the neighbor’s property line, as it is supposed to be attached directly to the house and the boundary runs at a slight angle, meaning our house would stand crooked on the plot with a lot of wasted space. “But garages are ALWAYS built flush with the boundary” – phew...
Are we going about this the wrong way? Unfortunately, I don’t have anyone to discuss this with, and I’m starting to feel like I’m stuck choosing between the lesser of two evils. Of course, problems always occur when building and not everything ever runs smoothly – no question. And of course, many tough decisions have to be made. But I didn’t expect the very beginning to be this exhausting.
I’m very grateful for any tips, clarifications, advice, or anything else, as right now we keep going in circles and making no progress. Maybe you just have to roll the dice and hope for the best?!
Best regards,
Daniel
B
Bau-beendet26 Apr 2024 01:33I believe the topic is not about prefabricated or masonry construction, but rather about the fundamental approach. How you should proceed with what. Maybe @11ant can offer some helpful advice.
N
nordanney26 Apr 2024 08:18@11ant will certainly help you as well.
Otherwise, you are mixing a lot of things. First of all, a prefabricated house can also be a solid (masonry) house. That’s no problem at all. However, you are confusing a system house manufacturer, who sells standard models (and charges extra for modifications), with a general contractor (GC) who provides a draftsman and is supposed to build the house for you as a turnkey project.
Both options can be constructed as solid masonry or as a timber frame structure. A local carpenter’s workshop can also custom-build houses if needed. Regardless of who builds the house or how, the final result is usually comparable. The costs are also generally comparable – the system house manufacturer just starts with a basic contract price (to which your requests or owner responsibilities will be added). In the end, everyone uses similar materials and methods.
What I do not see from you is a clear strategy. Who is actually designing the house according to your wishes? If you want a custom design (with a sensible floor plan), basically only an architect can provide that. The GC’s draftsman will also design for you, but they do not care if the floor plan makes sense or not. They don’t care about special requests either – you are paying for everything, and they design according to the GC’s interests. The architect designs exclusively for you. Whether the final plan then results in
- a prefabricated house or a house built by the GC or done with individual contractors
- a solid masonry or timber frame house
will become clear later. But as I said, you will get plenty of feedback on that.
At least your budget is reasonable (for a nice house). Calculate with a minimum of $3,000 per square meter (approximately $279 per square foot) of living space plus additional costs plus basement plus garage plus landscaping. Then add a 10% contingency, and the house can be built.
Otherwise, you are mixing a lot of things. First of all, a prefabricated house can also be a solid (masonry) house. That’s no problem at all. However, you are confusing a system house manufacturer, who sells standard models (and charges extra for modifications), with a general contractor (GC) who provides a draftsman and is supposed to build the house for you as a turnkey project.
Both options can be constructed as solid masonry or as a timber frame structure. A local carpenter’s workshop can also custom-build houses if needed. Regardless of who builds the house or how, the final result is usually comparable. The costs are also generally comparable – the system house manufacturer just starts with a basic contract price (to which your requests or owner responsibilities will be added). In the end, everyone uses similar materials and methods.
What I do not see from you is a clear strategy. Who is actually designing the house according to your wishes? If you want a custom design (with a sensible floor plan), basically only an architect can provide that. The GC’s draftsman will also design for you, but they do not care if the floor plan makes sense or not. They don’t care about special requests either – you are paying for everything, and they design according to the GC’s interests. The architect designs exclusively for you. Whether the final plan then results in
- a prefabricated house or a house built by the GC or done with individual contractors
- a solid masonry or timber frame house
will become clear later. But as I said, you will get plenty of feedback on that.
At least your budget is reasonable (for a nice house). Calculate with a minimum of $3,000 per square meter (approximately $279 per square foot) of living space plus additional costs plus basement plus garage plus landscaping. Then add a 10% contingency, and the house can be built.
Papierturm26 Apr 2024 09:36I am currently in a very similar situation and would like to share my thoughts on a few points...
There are several issues here.
1. I wouldn’t lump suppliers and salespeople together. Sounds odd? Well, I visited several model home parks, and there were very different types of salespeople representing the same manufacturer. In one model home park, almost all the salespeople from various companies we spoke with had previously worked for the same other company. I found that a bit curious. But it also shows that these salespeople often have little brand loyalty.
2. There are salespeople who focus on your actual needs – and others who are more commission-driven. Confidence is important! You decide what kind of house you need.
3. Whether a relationship that is strained from the start is a good foundation for collaboration is, of course, questionable.
Still: just because Salesperson A in Location X behaves problematically doesn’t mean the company, represented by Salesperson B in Location Y, is out of the picture. (Unfortunately, I have the subjective impression that almost all larger building companies also employ more problematic salespeople – which leaves you mainly with very small companies, with their own drawbacks.)
PS: On the topic of needing to justify…
I have discussed this with nearly every salesperson because I definitely do not want that system. It is a good litmus test for how well your wishes and concerns are respected.
(Of course, an air-to-water heat pump costs more than an air-to-air heat pump, but for me it’s worth it – there have already been various, more or less appreciative discussions about this. In short, why I don’t want an air-to-air heat pump: it means being tied to a single system, a closed system without local backup, plus mixed to poor feedback from users. For me, the conclusion was to go with an air-to-water heat pump.)
There is no construction project without problems. The important question is how the companies deal with issues! Are they fixed? Are they delayed? Are they passed on to someone else? That is what you need to find out.
I would strongly recommend asking for specific conditions. Here are some current example figures, which may change daily:
KfW 297/298 -> requires KfW 40 standard. The fixed interest rate today for terms over 10 years is about 2.94%, which is close to what some banks already offer. QNG certification increases the loan amount from 100,000 to 150,000; with our house bank (which is by no means the cheapest), this saves us less than the cost of the QNG certification.
KfW 300 -> not only requires KfW 40 standard but is also income-dependent! The income limit seems very low to me here, so I would check carefully whether you exceed this limit. However, the interest rates here are actually very good.
I strongly recommend comparing the costs of KfW support for 297/298 against the interest saved, especially if the income limit for KfW 300 is exceeded.
It is an extremely exciting time. Good luck!
Questie schrieb:
For example, having a basement was always a given for us, but instead of respecting this wish, we had to justify it multiple times. Why? Well, if we skip the basement and invest more in the house itself, the commission is higher – the basement is subcontracted to another company by this manufacturer. Not a good basis for trust, in my opinion.
There are several issues here.
1. I wouldn’t lump suppliers and salespeople together. Sounds odd? Well, I visited several model home parks, and there were very different types of salespeople representing the same manufacturer. In one model home park, almost all the salespeople from various companies we spoke with had previously worked for the same other company. I found that a bit curious. But it also shows that these salespeople often have little brand loyalty.
2. There are salespeople who focus on your actual needs – and others who are more commission-driven. Confidence is important! You decide what kind of house you need.
3. Whether a relationship that is strained from the start is a good foundation for collaboration is, of course, questionable.
Still: just because Salesperson A in Location X behaves problematically doesn’t mean the company, represented by Salesperson B in Location Y, is out of the picture. (Unfortunately, I have the subjective impression that almost all larger building companies also employ more problematic salespeople – which leaves you mainly with very small companies, with their own drawbacks.)
PS: On the topic of needing to justify…
The air heating system with ventilation and heat exchanger initially seemed convincing, although I simply don’t know much about it and have already been advised against it, since air does not absorb much energy. Additionally, the outlets are supplemented with electric heating – is that efficient? I just don’t know...
I have discussed this with nearly every salesperson because I definitely do not want that system. It is a good litmus test for how well your wishes and concerns are respected.
(Of course, an air-to-water heat pump costs more than an air-to-air heat pump, but for me it’s worth it – there have already been various, more or less appreciative discussions about this. In short, why I don’t want an air-to-air heat pump: it means being tied to a single system, a closed system without local backup, plus mixed to poor feedback from users. For me, the conclusion was to go with an air-to-water heat pump.)
If you ask friends who have built extensively, you always get the same answer: “Just don’t use our builder – it was a disaster” – from walls not being at 90°, to cables running right through windows...
There is no construction project without problems. The important question is how the companies deal with issues! Are they fixed? Are they delayed? Are they passed on to someone else? That is what you need to find out.
Can you also get a KfW xy loan, and under what conditions/costs?
I would strongly recommend asking for specific conditions. Here are some current example figures, which may change daily:
KfW 297/298 -> requires KfW 40 standard. The fixed interest rate today for terms over 10 years is about 2.94%, which is close to what some banks already offer. QNG certification increases the loan amount from 100,000 to 150,000; with our house bank (which is by no means the cheapest), this saves us less than the cost of the QNG certification.
KfW 300 -> not only requires KfW 40 standard but is also income-dependent! The income limit seems very low to me here, so I would check carefully whether you exceed this limit. However, the interest rates here are actually very good.
I strongly recommend comparing the costs of KfW support for 297/298 against the interest saved, especially if the income limit for KfW 300 is exceeded.
And also that you have to make many tough decisions. But I didn’t expect the very beginning to be this exhausting.
It is an extremely exciting time. Good luck!
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