ᐅ Costs for Heat Pumps and Photovoltaic Systems in Small Older Homes in 2024
Created on: 29 Feb 2024 17:33
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Winniefred
Winniefred29 Feb 2024 17:33Hello,
we plan to equip our old building with a heat pump and photovoltaic system by 2028. Currently, we heat with gas and have a consumption of about 7,000 kWh/year. The gas heating system was installed in 2010. Since the end of 2023, we also have solar thermal panels on the facade, but I cannot yet say how much energy they save. The house has 88 m² (947 ft²) spread over 3 floors, was built in 1921, the facade insulation dates from 1993, the insulation towards the basement is from 2023, and the roof insulation was done in 2017. The roof is a hipped roof with three sides: one facing southeast, one south, and one southwest, receiving sunlight from early to late. We left space there for a photovoltaic system, which is why the solar thermal panels are mounted on the south facade. On the ground floor (about 37 m² (398 ft²)) we have underfloor heating, and on the other two floors radiators from 2017.
Many of you have good expertise with heat pumps. What would you roughly estimate currently in 2024, and what type of system would be generally suitable here? We need to plan this long term, so we would appreciate a rough estimate. Our plumbing company is completely overloaded and we are not very satisfied with them; therefore, we do not want to consult them. Since the project will not begin for several years, I do not want to involve another company at this stage.
I understand that many details are still unclear. Nevertheless, I would appreciate any responses.
we plan to equip our old building with a heat pump and photovoltaic system by 2028. Currently, we heat with gas and have a consumption of about 7,000 kWh/year. The gas heating system was installed in 2010. Since the end of 2023, we also have solar thermal panels on the facade, but I cannot yet say how much energy they save. The house has 88 m² (947 ft²) spread over 3 floors, was built in 1921, the facade insulation dates from 1993, the insulation towards the basement is from 2023, and the roof insulation was done in 2017. The roof is a hipped roof with three sides: one facing southeast, one south, and one southwest, receiving sunlight from early to late. We left space there for a photovoltaic system, which is why the solar thermal panels are mounted on the south facade. On the ground floor (about 37 m² (398 ft²)) we have underfloor heating, and on the other two floors radiators from 2017.
Many of you have good expertise with heat pumps. What would you roughly estimate currently in 2024, and what type of system would be generally suitable here? We need to plan this long term, so we would appreciate a rough estimate. Our plumbing company is completely overloaded and we are not very satisfied with them; therefore, we do not want to consult them. Since the project will not begin for several years, I do not want to involve another company at this stage.
I understand that many details are still unclear. Nevertheless, I would appreciate any responses.
Winniefred schrieb:
We plan to equip our old building with a heat pump and photovoltaic system by 2028.At the moment, there is a gold rush and price gouging atmosphere among companies, so we are waiting until 2027. Every year, new advanced devices are released.
Your new device is still in development.
Winniefred29 Feb 2024 17:48Nida35a schrieb:
At the moment, companies are taking advantage with a gold rush mentality,
so it’s better to wait until 2027 since new advanced devices are released every year.
Your new device is still in development right now. Yes, that adds to the situation; it seems there is something planned for older buildings. Still, I am curious about what you would estimate today. Because we can’t wait until 2027 to find out if it costs €50,000 when we want to do it in 2028^^. I would start looking for companies at the end of 2026 so that it can be completed in 2028.
Heat pumps become more affordable when subsidies are no longer available.
There simply aren’t enough customers at 50,000€ (about 54,000 USD). The online price serves as a guideline; the price that is three times higher is not justified (but the Q7 still has to be paid monthly, grin).
There simply aren’t enough customers at 50,000€ (about 54,000 USD). The online price serves as a guideline; the price that is three times higher is not justified (but the Q7 still has to be paid monthly, grin).
N
nordanney29 Feb 2024 18:15Winniefred schrieb:
I understand that many things are still unclear here. Nevertheless, I would appreciate any answers. So – as of today, you should expect or plan for costs starting at €20,000 (about $22,000), before any subsidies! I just read a quote for replacing an old gas heating system with a Panasonic heat pump. The contractor’s all-inclusive offer was €19,900 (about $21,900) to be exact. Asian brands like Panasonic have clearly been offered much more often lately – Richter&Frenzel seems to be a strong wholesaler supporting many contractors who want to move away from the heavily overpriced (German) equipment.
P.S. The Asian suppliers currently have delivery times of 2 to 5 business days. New models come directly with propane as the refrigerant.
Winniefred schrieb:
I would start looking for companies at the end of 2026, so that the project could be completed by 2028. That’s not reasonable. Way too much lead time. Many companies now only have a few weeks of waiting time, not years. Some heat pump manufacturers are even running short-time work because the initial hype, fueled by the far too high profit margins of installers, has already faded. At the same time, production capacities are being expanded massively. Either start searching in mid-2027 if you want to be ready for the next winter, or do it in winter 2027/28 so that the new heating system can be installed after the heating season.
Winniefred schrieb:
The house has 88m2 (about 947 sq ft) over 3 floors, I know you have a small older house, but I didn’t expect the floors to be that small.
Handy with DIY?
But if I remember correctly, that wasn’t really the case for you.
Technically and in terms of price/performance, I can recommend the Panasonic Aquarea "Geisha." The new generation "L" is a hydrosplit version using propane (R290) as refrigerant, now also available in a subtle black design and quieter operation:
The outdoor unit contains the refrigeration circuit and heat exchanger – only the supply/return water lines and power supply are connected there;
The indoor unit has a 3-way valve for domestic hot water production and all other components, with the new hot water tank located directly underneath the unit. It’s truly plug and play, competitively priced, and also very well designed for installation.
Panasonic is, by the way, the world’s largest manufacturer of heat pumps and compressors, and this series is highly refined, performing excellently both on paper and in real life.
No, I don’t receive anything from Panasonic. I have seen the system in operation with actual data at two acquaintances (generations H and J), and my own generation J system (since propane is not allowed at my installation site) will be installed this summer, with the L version coming next year for my mother-in-law.
Price if no radiators need replacing:
Materials including everything (Panasonic combined indoor module + 5 kW outdoor unit) cost around €6,500 (about $7,000) net, €8,000 (about $8,700) gross.
You do the base and gravel bed yourself,
for installation, realistically 2 people for a maximum of 2 days, so 2 x 2 x 8 x 100€ = €3,200 (about $3,500), (in your case, without radiator replacement).
One day for the electrician: €1,000 (about $1,100).
Planning and construction supervision including commissioning and explanations by an energy efficiency expert (EEE) or another competent professional: 3 days = €3,000 (about $3,300).
That totals roughly €15,000 (about $16,300).
But if you go for the boss’s Benz/Porsche version, add another €5,000 (about $5,500), with a reduction in subsidies as a trade-off.
You can get subsidies if the work is carried out by a professional company (possibly with support from an EEE): 30% base, +5% for propane gas, +20% if your gas heating system is 20 years or older. So between 35–55% or more, especially if your household had an average taxable income below €40,000 (about $43,500) in the two calendar years before the year before applying (2021/2022, according to your tax assessment).
The most important thing in the retrofit: Leave out everything that is unnecessary (for example, buffer tanks, and definitely no combined buffer tanks), no individual room control or at least keep 80% of the heating circuits/radiators always on; hydraulic balancing with method B = room-by-room heat load and adjustment of flow rates, possibly enlarging radiators (the key is the maximum required temperature in the circuit – this must be lowered); no mixing valves (mixing valves cause water to be too warm and could be cooler); and size the heat pump correctly – in your case, without detailed calculation: at most the smallest heat pump, so 5 kW.
This can be done by a competent specialist company (rare), a good energy efficiency expert (sometimes), or an experienced planning firm (often fully booked and expensive): Always critically review the results until you understand them yourself.
But if I remember correctly, that wasn’t really the case for you.
Technically and in terms of price/performance, I can recommend the Panasonic Aquarea "Geisha." The new generation "L" is a hydrosplit version using propane (R290) as refrigerant, now also available in a subtle black design and quieter operation:
The outdoor unit contains the refrigeration circuit and heat exchanger – only the supply/return water lines and power supply are connected there;
The indoor unit has a 3-way valve for domestic hot water production and all other components, with the new hot water tank located directly underneath the unit. It’s truly plug and play, competitively priced, and also very well designed for installation.
Panasonic is, by the way, the world’s largest manufacturer of heat pumps and compressors, and this series is highly refined, performing excellently both on paper and in real life.
No, I don’t receive anything from Panasonic. I have seen the system in operation with actual data at two acquaintances (generations H and J), and my own generation J system (since propane is not allowed at my installation site) will be installed this summer, with the L version coming next year for my mother-in-law.
Price if no radiators need replacing:
Materials including everything (Panasonic combined indoor module + 5 kW outdoor unit) cost around €6,500 (about $7,000) net, €8,000 (about $8,700) gross.
You do the base and gravel bed yourself,
for installation, realistically 2 people for a maximum of 2 days, so 2 x 2 x 8 x 100€ = €3,200 (about $3,500), (in your case, without radiator replacement).
One day for the electrician: €1,000 (about $1,100).
Planning and construction supervision including commissioning and explanations by an energy efficiency expert (EEE) or another competent professional: 3 days = €3,000 (about $3,300).
That totals roughly €15,000 (about $16,300).
But if you go for the boss’s Benz/Porsche version, add another €5,000 (about $5,500), with a reduction in subsidies as a trade-off.
You can get subsidies if the work is carried out by a professional company (possibly with support from an EEE): 30% base, +5% for propane gas, +20% if your gas heating system is 20 years or older. So between 35–55% or more, especially if your household had an average taxable income below €40,000 (about $43,500) in the two calendar years before the year before applying (2021/2022, according to your tax assessment).
The most important thing in the retrofit: Leave out everything that is unnecessary (for example, buffer tanks, and definitely no combined buffer tanks), no individual room control or at least keep 80% of the heating circuits/radiators always on; hydraulic balancing with method B = room-by-room heat load and adjustment of flow rates, possibly enlarging radiators (the key is the maximum required temperature in the circuit – this must be lowered); no mixing valves (mixing valves cause water to be too warm and could be cooler); and size the heat pump correctly – in your case, without detailed calculation: at most the smallest heat pump, so 5 kW.
This can be done by a competent specialist company (rare), a good energy efficiency expert (sometimes), or an experienced planning firm (often fully booked and expensive): Always critically review the results until you understand them yourself.
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