Hello dear community,
we are just beginning to explore the topic of Smart Home and I would appreciate your opinions on our current (early) planning.
Starting point:
- New build of a single-family house with a general contractor, approximately 160m² (1720 sq ft) of living space, 3 children’s bedrooms + home office
- Building permit / planning permission currently pending; construction start planned for spring
- I would like to create and customize the Smart Home logic myself; I am willing to study it in depth and enjoy the topic
Planned automation:
(1) Starting with very simple functions such as automatic lights on/off with presence detection for 6 rooms (WC, utility room, storage room, upstairs and downstairs hallway, staircase)
(2) In the guest bathroom, music should also turn on with presence detection and possibly increase ventilation slightly
(3) Throughout the entire upper floor (6 rooms), a night light should turn on at night when movement is detected (e.g., for nighttime bathroom visits)
(4) All blinds / shutters (16x) should be controllable individually (based on time or sun position)
(5) All windows/doors (17x) equipped with tilt sensors to detect open windows, e.g., warnings in case of rain, alerts when the house is left, simple alarm system
(6) Front door with electric lock and video doorbell
(7) Underfloor heating digitally controllable per room
(8) Simple outdoor automations for lighting (motion sensors) and cameras
(9) We want to avoid push buttons wherever possible; we prefer voice control or even better fully automated operation without any interaction
Still open / to discuss:
(1) Hot water and circulation only at certain times or when someone is at home (is this financially worthwhile with efficient heat pumps at all?)
(2) CO2 sensors, for example in the home office, to control ventilation based on presence/absence (e.g., ventilation set to maximum if I quickly leave for coffee and the CO2 value exceeds a certain threshold)
(3) Networked smoke detectors as an alarm system and to hear a fire alarm from the ground floor in the bedroom (?)
(4) Robot vacuum cleaner in the hallway that starts automatically when entering or leaving the house (to clean dirt in the hallway)
(5) Lawn mower that only operates under certain weather conditions and when no one is in the garden
(6) Automatic garden irrigation depending on the forecasted weather (cistern planned)
(7) Towel heater in the bathroom to switch on/off selectively (e.g., warm bathroom in the morning, warm towels right after showering)
(8) "Public address" system from the kitchen to all children’s bedrooms (“Dinner is ready”)
Questions:
(1) Do the planned automations make sense so far?
(2) Do you have any comments and/or recommendations regarding the open points? Are there any interesting automations we are missing?
(3) What is the best way to plan such a Smart Home with a general contractor? They only offer a lump sum package through their electrician with a “Smart@Home” system. I would prefer to plan with a specialized electrician. Is it possible to exclude this trade from the contract and award it separately, or would this cause problems?
(4) Am I correct in assuming that a KNX wired system would be suitable for the above use cases? As a comparison, I roughly calculated Homematic IP flush-mounted installation costs between 5,000–10,000€ as an additional investment (besides the standard general contractor electrical work). How could I make a reasonable cost estimate for KNX? Background: If a wireless solution costs me 10,000€, I want to carefully consider whether I am willing to spend 30,000€+ on KNX.
(5) Is it realistically possible in such a Smart Home to almost completely do without push buttons in the rooms? (We find voice control much more convenient and currently use a lot of Alexa)
we are just beginning to explore the topic of Smart Home and I would appreciate your opinions on our current (early) planning.
Starting point:
- New build of a single-family house with a general contractor, approximately 160m² (1720 sq ft) of living space, 3 children’s bedrooms + home office
- Building permit / planning permission currently pending; construction start planned for spring
- I would like to create and customize the Smart Home logic myself; I am willing to study it in depth and enjoy the topic
Planned automation:
(1) Starting with very simple functions such as automatic lights on/off with presence detection for 6 rooms (WC, utility room, storage room, upstairs and downstairs hallway, staircase)
(2) In the guest bathroom, music should also turn on with presence detection and possibly increase ventilation slightly
(3) Throughout the entire upper floor (6 rooms), a night light should turn on at night when movement is detected (e.g., for nighttime bathroom visits)
(4) All blinds / shutters (16x) should be controllable individually (based on time or sun position)
(5) All windows/doors (17x) equipped with tilt sensors to detect open windows, e.g., warnings in case of rain, alerts when the house is left, simple alarm system
(6) Front door with electric lock and video doorbell
(7) Underfloor heating digitally controllable per room
(8) Simple outdoor automations for lighting (motion sensors) and cameras
(9) We want to avoid push buttons wherever possible; we prefer voice control or even better fully automated operation without any interaction
Still open / to discuss:
(1) Hot water and circulation only at certain times or when someone is at home (is this financially worthwhile with efficient heat pumps at all?)
(2) CO2 sensors, for example in the home office, to control ventilation based on presence/absence (e.g., ventilation set to maximum if I quickly leave for coffee and the CO2 value exceeds a certain threshold)
(3) Networked smoke detectors as an alarm system and to hear a fire alarm from the ground floor in the bedroom (?)
(4) Robot vacuum cleaner in the hallway that starts automatically when entering or leaving the house (to clean dirt in the hallway)
(5) Lawn mower that only operates under certain weather conditions and when no one is in the garden
(6) Automatic garden irrigation depending on the forecasted weather (cistern planned)
(7) Towel heater in the bathroom to switch on/off selectively (e.g., warm bathroom in the morning, warm towels right after showering)
(8) "Public address" system from the kitchen to all children’s bedrooms (“Dinner is ready”)
Questions:
(1) Do the planned automations make sense so far?
(2) Do you have any comments and/or recommendations regarding the open points? Are there any interesting automations we are missing?
(3) What is the best way to plan such a Smart Home with a general contractor? They only offer a lump sum package through their electrician with a “Smart@Home” system. I would prefer to plan with a specialized electrician. Is it possible to exclude this trade from the contract and award it separately, or would this cause problems?
(4) Am I correct in assuming that a KNX wired system would be suitable for the above use cases? As a comparison, I roughly calculated Homematic IP flush-mounted installation costs between 5,000–10,000€ as an additional investment (besides the standard general contractor electrical work). How could I make a reasonable cost estimate for KNX? Background: If a wireless solution costs me 10,000€, I want to carefully consider whether I am willing to spend 30,000€+ on KNX.
(5) Is it realistically possible in such a Smart Home to almost completely do without push buttons in the rooms? (We find voice control much more convenient and currently use a lot of Alexa)
Mucuc18 schrieb:
Sounds simple, but have you actually tried this in practice? Sure 😉 I haven’t tested the shower logic myself yet—that was just the example in this post. Our heating system isn’t integrated in KNX anyway, but several other users have already explained that. However, I have programmed the house of some friends and my own is mostly programmed as well, even though we are just starting to build the slab 🙂
Mucuc18 schrieb:
I’m just imagining that after a quick 3-minute shower, the humidity rises above the set value—the heating kicks in—and by minutes 4 or 5, I’m jumping out of the shower in a hurry. Looking forward to a KNX-preheated towel, I’m disappointed to find it still cold and the radiator only just warming up. That’s why my prerequisite was the “classic” approach of manually turning on the heating before showering. Without KNX, it wouldn’t get warm enough either in that case.
FloHB123 schrieb:
As I understand it, automation with KNX only makes sense where interaction between devices is desired that normally have no connection. Like the example of the TV and roller blinds. For everything else, the solutions from the respective manufacturers are better suited.
With a roller blind, you can just as well put a wireless switch right next to the sofa and press it when needed. That should be doable for well under 20k.You say manufacturer solutions are better suited—I might agree if they are equally good. But what makes Somfy roller shutter control better than an identical implementation in KNX? In my case, I’d even say the roller shutters in my house rarely need to be operated manually anymore. When I want to go to the terrace, a reed switch triggers the signal to raise the roller shutter (and then it definitely does not lower automatically again so I don’t lock myself out). When the sun is shining, a sun-position-based lamella or shading edge adjustment always ensures enough light without glare and minimal heat. When it gets dark, everything goes down, and in the morning it even gently wakes me up with daylight in sync with the alarm.
And yes, you can implement KNX for under 20k if you do everything yourself. You have the usual costs for electrical installation anyway; with KNX, you simply pay more attention to many details because few people insist on tidy terminal blocks for their traditional electrical installation. My “dumb” roller shutter motors cost significantly less than wireless motors, but I have higher costs for the actuators. In the end, it’s probably about the same price.
For me personally, KNX makes sense whenever it makes daily life easier, even if it’s just a few seconds saved by not having to press a light switch or having the roller shutter open by itself. That’s also why I have a dishwasher and a robot vacuum cleaner 😉
Hello,
No, it’s not going to be that simple. In winter, the humidity in the bathroom will fluctuate between 35% and 55%, depending on the weather outside and moisture from showering. In summer, expect it more in the range of 50% to 75%, but of course the radiator should not switch on then... So what now? You would have to program it with heating period-specific logic, and during transitional seasons there will still be cases where it doesn’t work perfectly.
Everyone is free to enjoy exploring their playful side with this stuff, but reading along, some applications seem, to put it mildly, a bit unrealistic...
- Voice control for lights? Good luck holding a screaming toddler in your arms when you are totally sick and hoarse, or when you just want to turn the light on quietly and without noise. Let’s better not even talk about guests or grandma.
- Playing music in the toilet? Honestly, I’m glad if I get some peace and quiet there. The last thing I want is to have it blasted with sound!
- Light control by presence detector in the toilet? Our guest toilet is brightly lit with 15 watts. If the light was on 24/7, that’s about 30€ in electricity per year. Realistically, it may accidentally stay on overnight once every two months. Also: The office has a strobe light presence detector in the toilet. Unfortunately, it doesn’t detect you while you’re sitting on the toilet, so the light goes off after 2 minutes… *argh*
- Temperature monitoring of the refrigerator? WTF... every decent refrigerator has had that for 20 years!
- Ventilation or heating control? There’s simply nothing to control here. They are set once and then run 24/7 with those settings. Especially the heating is far too slow to react to small stuff like “today 5 people are visiting, so we need 500 W less heating power.”
- Informing kids about dinner via Alexa or an internal speaker system? Are you building the Palace of Versailles? At our place, just calling out is still enough. If the kids don’t come, it’s not because they didn’t hear it...
When I was building my house, I thought long and hard about installing KNX but in the end decided against it. The playful part of me still misses it, but the realist is happy about the huge amount of saved time.
Good luck!
Best regards,
Andreas
Ramona13 schrieb:
Internally, the heating actuator then always receives the command from the logic module to increase the heating in the bathroom when the humidity is high. If you want to turn it off again, you create a second logic setup for a humidity value below a certain threshold. In KNX, you can either poll the sensors cyclically or have them send data only when the state changes.
No, it’s not going to be that simple. In winter, the humidity in the bathroom will fluctuate between 35% and 55%, depending on the weather outside and moisture from showering. In summer, expect it more in the range of 50% to 75%, but of course the radiator should not switch on then... So what now? You would have to program it with heating period-specific logic, and during transitional seasons there will still be cases where it doesn’t work perfectly.
Everyone is free to enjoy exploring their playful side with this stuff, but reading along, some applications seem, to put it mildly, a bit unrealistic...
- Voice control for lights? Good luck holding a screaming toddler in your arms when you are totally sick and hoarse, or when you just want to turn the light on quietly and without noise. Let’s better not even talk about guests or grandma.
- Playing music in the toilet? Honestly, I’m glad if I get some peace and quiet there. The last thing I want is to have it blasted with sound!
- Light control by presence detector in the toilet? Our guest toilet is brightly lit with 15 watts. If the light was on 24/7, that’s about 30€ in electricity per year. Realistically, it may accidentally stay on overnight once every two months. Also: The office has a strobe light presence detector in the toilet. Unfortunately, it doesn’t detect you while you’re sitting on the toilet, so the light goes off after 2 minutes… *argh*
- Temperature monitoring of the refrigerator? WTF... every decent refrigerator has had that for 20 years!
- Ventilation or heating control? There’s simply nothing to control here. They are set once and then run 24/7 with those settings. Especially the heating is far too slow to react to small stuff like “today 5 people are visiting, so we need 500 W less heating power.”
- Informing kids about dinner via Alexa or an internal speaker system? Are you building the Palace of Versailles? At our place, just calling out is still enough. If the kids don’t come, it’s not because they didn’t hear it...
When I was building my house, I thought long and hard about installing KNX but in the end decided against it. The playful part of me still misses it, but the realist is happy about the huge amount of saved time.
Good luck!
Best regards,
Andreas
S
Schnubbihh8 Jan 2024 17:27andimann schrieb:
Hello,
No, it’s not going to be that simple. In winter, the humidity in the bathroom will fluctuate between 35 and 55% depending on the weather outside and moisture from showers. In summer, expect around 50–75%, but of course, the radiator shouldn’t switch on then... So what now? You have to program it specifically for the heating season, and during transitional periods there will still be cases where it doesn’t work perfectly.
Everyone is entitled to indulge their playful side, but from reading along, some applications seem, to put it mildly, not quite realistic...
- Voice control for the lights? Good luck holding a crying toddler when you’re sick and hoarse, or if you just want to turn on the lights quietly and without noise. Let’s not even talk about guests or grandma.
- Music in the toilet? Honestly, I’m happy to get some peace and quiet there. The last thing I want is to have it blasted with music!
- Presence sensors for the bathroom lighting? Our guest toilet is brightly lit with a 15-watt bulb. If the light was on 24/7, that would mean about $30/year in electricity. Realistically, it might accidentally be left on overnight once every two months. Also: In the office, a bright presence sensor was planned for the toilet. It unfortunately doesn’t detect you when you’re sitting, so the light goes out after 2 minutes... *argh*
- Refrigerator temperature monitoring? WTF... any decent fridge has had that for 20 years!
- Controlling ventilation or heating? There is simply nothing to control. They are set once and then run 24/7 with those settings. Especially heating is way too slow to respond to small things like “Today there are 5 guests, so we need 500 W less heating power.”
- Informing kids about dinner via Alexa or an internal speaker system? Are you building Versailles? Calling out still works for us. If the kids don’t come, it’s not because they didn’t hear it...
I seriously considered installing KNX when building the house but eventually decided against it. The playful part of me still misses it, but the realist in me is happy about all the time saved.
Good luck!
Best regards,
Andreas No offense, but your post shows you really don’t want to embrace Smart Home...
(1) Voice control for the lights: We already use it daily in our rented apartment, even with three kids; it works wonderfully and is a blessing every time when sitting at the dining table or on the couch without having to get up. I can see the point of having an alternative switch as well.
(2) Music in the toilet: This is mainly about the guest WC. As a guest, I appreciate not having every little sound broadcast into the hallway.
(3) Presence sensors in the toilet: They are designed to detect both presence and absence. Why should the light be on 24/7? You seem to have misunderstood something here. Regarding the light going off while sitting: There is a subtle but important difference between old-fashioned “motion sensors” and modern “presence sensors”. These can now accurately detect when someone is sitting and just breathing.
(4) Refrigerator temperature monitoring: The point isn’t that the fridge knows its temperature, but that I know what it is and get notified if the fridge breaks down and the food is at risk of spoiling. (Happened to us.)
(5) Control of ventilation/heating: This has been discussed enough here; it’s fine to have different opinions.
(6) Informing kids via internal speaker system: We specifically paid attention to soundproofing in our house, since with three boys it certainly won’t always be quiet. Just let the kids stay in their rooms with the door closed and maybe some quiet music. They won’t hear anything from the ground floor.
Conclusion: If you are not interested in Smart Home, we don’t need to convince you here. But dismissing everything just because you can’t imagine it yourself isn’t the solution either...
J
jens.knoedel8 Jan 2024 17:37andimann schrieb:
Everyone is entitled to satisfy their playful side, but while reading along, some of the applications seem, to put it mildly, not quite realistic.... I agree with that and have already expressed similar views.
If I had enough money, I would join in the fun as well. It’s certainly a nice gadget. Therefore, I’m relying on a much smaller setup with Shelly only. This can already do a lot, including integration of now smart kitchen appliances, as well as leak detectors, temperature and light sensors, etc. Visualization and processing is done via iobroker.
Y
Ypsi aus NI8 Jan 2024 20:17I’m following this with great interest. We have just recently built a house with KNX, offering many options, although the programming is still partially unfinished. I wanted to share some thoughts on the topic of speaker announcements in the children’s room. Somehow, I find the idea a bit unsettling, sorry. Suddenly, a voice appears out of nowhere and the child is wide awake in bed because they were just dozing off.
Upstairs, we have three potential children’s rooms and we solved the future communication issue like this: in each room, there is a profile between the ceiling and wall with a built-in LED light strip. Through KNX, different scenes (colors as well as patterns like ‘Northern Lights’, ‘Fire Brigade’, etc.) can be played. We will use that. The ‘Dinner’ scene is activated by pressing a switch in the common area (we have this scene assigned to multiple buttons), the kitchen lights dim, the dining table lights turn on, Sonos speakers start playing, and the LEDs upstairs display an aurora effect. In each children’s room upstairs, two switches (by the bed and the door) can turn this off again if the child does not want to come to dinner. You can further expand this idea—different colors equal different scenes: dinner, leaving in 10 minutes, quieter, homework time, taking out the trash.
Just a thought as an alternative to speaker announcements like a shopping mall’s “the driver of the vehicle…” style.
Upstairs, we have three potential children’s rooms and we solved the future communication issue like this: in each room, there is a profile between the ceiling and wall with a built-in LED light strip. Through KNX, different scenes (colors as well as patterns like ‘Northern Lights’, ‘Fire Brigade’, etc.) can be played. We will use that. The ‘Dinner’ scene is activated by pressing a switch in the common area (we have this scene assigned to multiple buttons), the kitchen lights dim, the dining table lights turn on, Sonos speakers start playing, and the LEDs upstairs display an aurora effect. In each children’s room upstairs, two switches (by the bed and the door) can turn this off again if the child does not want to come to dinner. You can further expand this idea—different colors equal different scenes: dinner, leaving in 10 minutes, quieter, homework time, taking out the trash.
Just a thought as an alternative to speaker announcements like a shopping mall’s “the driver of the vehicle…” style.
J
jens.knoedel8 Jan 2024 21:09Ypsi aus NI schrieb:
Suddenly, there’s a voice, and the child is standing upright in bed because it had just been dozing off. I can imagine all sorts of other things...