Hello dear community,
we are just beginning to explore the topic of Smart Home and I would appreciate your opinions on our current (early) planning.
Starting point:
- New build of a single-family house with a general contractor, approximately 160m² (1720 sq ft) of living space, 3 children’s bedrooms + home office
- Building permit / planning permission currently pending; construction start planned for spring
- I would like to create and customize the Smart Home logic myself; I am willing to study it in depth and enjoy the topic
Planned automation:
(1) Starting with very simple functions such as automatic lights on/off with presence detection for 6 rooms (WC, utility room, storage room, upstairs and downstairs hallway, staircase)
(2) In the guest bathroom, music should also turn on with presence detection and possibly increase ventilation slightly
(3) Throughout the entire upper floor (6 rooms), a night light should turn on at night when movement is detected (e.g., for nighttime bathroom visits)
(4) All blinds / shutters (16x) should be controllable individually (based on time or sun position)
(5) All windows/doors (17x) equipped with tilt sensors to detect open windows, e.g., warnings in case of rain, alerts when the house is left, simple alarm system
(6) Front door with electric lock and video doorbell
(7) Underfloor heating digitally controllable per room
(8) Simple outdoor automations for lighting (motion sensors) and cameras
(9) We want to avoid push buttons wherever possible; we prefer voice control or even better fully automated operation without any interaction
Still open / to discuss:
(1) Hot water and circulation only at certain times or when someone is at home (is this financially worthwhile with efficient heat pumps at all?)
(2) CO2 sensors, for example in the home office, to control ventilation based on presence/absence (e.g., ventilation set to maximum if I quickly leave for coffee and the CO2 value exceeds a certain threshold)
(3) Networked smoke detectors as an alarm system and to hear a fire alarm from the ground floor in the bedroom (?)
(4) Robot vacuum cleaner in the hallway that starts automatically when entering or leaving the house (to clean dirt in the hallway)
(5) Lawn mower that only operates under certain weather conditions and when no one is in the garden
(6) Automatic garden irrigation depending on the forecasted weather (cistern planned)
(7) Towel heater in the bathroom to switch on/off selectively (e.g., warm bathroom in the morning, warm towels right after showering)
(8) "Public address" system from the kitchen to all children’s bedrooms (“Dinner is ready”)
Questions:
(1) Do the planned automations make sense so far?
(2) Do you have any comments and/or recommendations regarding the open points? Are there any interesting automations we are missing?
(3) What is the best way to plan such a Smart Home with a general contractor? They only offer a lump sum package through their electrician with a “Smart@Home” system. I would prefer to plan with a specialized electrician. Is it possible to exclude this trade from the contract and award it separately, or would this cause problems?
(4) Am I correct in assuming that a KNX wired system would be suitable for the above use cases? As a comparison, I roughly calculated Homematic IP flush-mounted installation costs between 5,000–10,000€ as an additional investment (besides the standard general contractor electrical work). How could I make a reasonable cost estimate for KNX? Background: If a wireless solution costs me 10,000€, I want to carefully consider whether I am willing to spend 30,000€+ on KNX.
(5) Is it realistically possible in such a Smart Home to almost completely do without push buttons in the rooms? (We find voice control much more convenient and currently use a lot of Alexa)
we are just beginning to explore the topic of Smart Home and I would appreciate your opinions on our current (early) planning.
Starting point:
- New build of a single-family house with a general contractor, approximately 160m² (1720 sq ft) of living space, 3 children’s bedrooms + home office
- Building permit / planning permission currently pending; construction start planned for spring
- I would like to create and customize the Smart Home logic myself; I am willing to study it in depth and enjoy the topic
Planned automation:
(1) Starting with very simple functions such as automatic lights on/off with presence detection for 6 rooms (WC, utility room, storage room, upstairs and downstairs hallway, staircase)
(2) In the guest bathroom, music should also turn on with presence detection and possibly increase ventilation slightly
(3) Throughout the entire upper floor (6 rooms), a night light should turn on at night when movement is detected (e.g., for nighttime bathroom visits)
(4) All blinds / shutters (16x) should be controllable individually (based on time or sun position)
(5) All windows/doors (17x) equipped with tilt sensors to detect open windows, e.g., warnings in case of rain, alerts when the house is left, simple alarm system
(6) Front door with electric lock and video doorbell
(7) Underfloor heating digitally controllable per room
(8) Simple outdoor automations for lighting (motion sensors) and cameras
(9) We want to avoid push buttons wherever possible; we prefer voice control or even better fully automated operation without any interaction
Still open / to discuss:
(1) Hot water and circulation only at certain times or when someone is at home (is this financially worthwhile with efficient heat pumps at all?)
(2) CO2 sensors, for example in the home office, to control ventilation based on presence/absence (e.g., ventilation set to maximum if I quickly leave for coffee and the CO2 value exceeds a certain threshold)
(3) Networked smoke detectors as an alarm system and to hear a fire alarm from the ground floor in the bedroom (?)
(4) Robot vacuum cleaner in the hallway that starts automatically when entering or leaving the house (to clean dirt in the hallway)
(5) Lawn mower that only operates under certain weather conditions and when no one is in the garden
(6) Automatic garden irrigation depending on the forecasted weather (cistern planned)
(7) Towel heater in the bathroom to switch on/off selectively (e.g., warm bathroom in the morning, warm towels right after showering)
(8) "Public address" system from the kitchen to all children’s bedrooms (“Dinner is ready”)
Questions:
(1) Do the planned automations make sense so far?
(2) Do you have any comments and/or recommendations regarding the open points? Are there any interesting automations we are missing?
(3) What is the best way to plan such a Smart Home with a general contractor? They only offer a lump sum package through their electrician with a “Smart@Home” system. I would prefer to plan with a specialized electrician. Is it possible to exclude this trade from the contract and award it separately, or would this cause problems?
(4) Am I correct in assuming that a KNX wired system would be suitable for the above use cases? As a comparison, I roughly calculated Homematic IP flush-mounted installation costs between 5,000–10,000€ as an additional investment (besides the standard general contractor electrical work). How could I make a reasonable cost estimate for KNX? Background: If a wireless solution costs me 10,000€, I want to carefully consider whether I am willing to spend 30,000€+ on KNX.
(5) Is it realistically possible in such a Smart Home to almost completely do without push buttons in the rooms? (We find voice control much more convenient and currently use a lot of Alexa)
jens.knoedel schrieb:
Then you can just work with Shelly as well. Who manufactures it doesn’t matter at all, as long as it works with my other system components.
jens.knoedel schrieb:
Honestly—not just to you—why do I need to have the oven, etc., remotely switchable? And why measure power consumption? I can see the usage, but controlling and monitoring it seems pointless to me (also for the fridge). I visualize consumption simply because I want to and because I can. Three actuator channels for the oven won’t significantly affect the cost anyway. By switchable, I mean more like able to be turned off, or—for the dryer and washing machine—a “cycle finished” notification based on power usage. Also, as an automatic shutoff when they are done and no one is home or sleeping, so these appliances don’t annoy with beeping (like my washing machine) indefinitely. For the fridge or freezer, this lets me know if they fail. Whether a washing machine is running can also be integrated into leak detection. Do I have water-using devices on while the flow meter registers water use? Yes = all good, no = main valve closed due to a possible leak, etc. There are many ideas. A smart home should take tasks off your hands and provide support. Just turning lights on and off is unremarkable.
Nothing here is life-critical, but that’s generally not what a smart home is about.
Nowadays, many devices are network-enabled (e.g., Home Connect, Miele@home, or similar) and can be integrated more or less seamlessly through a visualization system (e.g., Home Assistant), allowing status messages to be displayed and additional automation to be triggered. This offers much more than simple power measurement.
However, admittedly, it is more challenging to configure and can occasionally "fail" because someone at BSH might have had a questionable idea.
However, admittedly, it is more challenging to configure and can occasionally "fail" because someone at BSH might have had a questionable idea.
J
jens.knoedel5 Jan 2024 08:49Araknis schrieb:
I can visualize consumption simply because I want to and can.That’s a reason I can well accept = hobby Araknis schrieb:
so these things don’t keep annoying (like my washing machine) with their beeping forever.You can usually just turn that off ==> user manual 😉 Harakiri schrieb:
Nowadays, many appliances are directly network-enabled (e.g. Home Connect, Miele@home, etc.) and can be integrated more or less nicely through a visualization system (e.g. Home Assistant), showing status updates and triggering other actions.Yep. For example, the dishwasher complains when the supply of tablets is running low. Crazy…I believe that switchable outlet circuits are becoming less and less practical, which is true. Due to the low standby power consumption of today’s devices, their usefulness is questionable.
However, there are still some specific applications, such as the classic example of Christmas lighting, but also genuinely useful cases like outdoor outlet circuits for patios and similar areas, or perhaps even attics.
Switchable channels will still be needed for various purposes, such as door openers, towel heaters, lighting, irrigation pumps, and so on.
The use of power measurement is definitely something to reconsider. It can be used for typical appliances like stoves, refrigerators, and washing machines as a way to monitor status and detect faults. However, in the future, more and more functionalities like Home Connect and similar systems will likely replace this. The question is whether it’s worth committing to this approach (I argue that the effort will remain manageable). In the worst case, the power measurement channels could simply be configured as regular switchable channels.
However, there are still some specific applications, such as the classic example of Christmas lighting, but also genuinely useful cases like outdoor outlet circuits for patios and similar areas, or perhaps even attics.
Switchable channels will still be needed for various purposes, such as door openers, towel heaters, lighting, irrigation pumps, and so on.
The use of power measurement is definitely something to reconsider. It can be used for typical appliances like stoves, refrigerators, and washing machines as a way to monitor status and detect faults. However, in the future, more and more functionalities like Home Connect and similar systems will likely replace this. The question is whether it’s worth committing to this approach (I argue that the effort will remain manageable). In the worst case, the power measurement channels could simply be configured as regular switchable channels.
R
RotorMotor5 Jan 2024 09:32jens.knoedel schrieb:
With a properly designed heating system, it’s even more comfortable NOT to rely on the ERR.Where did you get that nonsense from? Clearly not from studies or practical experience.
jens.knoedel schrieb:
The entire system, including the heating circuits in sunlit rooms, adjusts itself correctly.Without actuators, nothing adjusts by itself. What you mean is that certain self-regulating effects occur once saturation is reached in the rooms.
But that neither saves energy nor improves comfort.
jens.knoedel schrieb:
Besides, the underfloor heating already regulates, even with sunlight, so delayed that a shutdown by the ERR only comes into effect in the evening or at night.That’s also wrong. It reacts quite quickly.
For example, if set to 21.5°C (71°F) in the office, it maintains that temperature consistently.
If this is exceeded, it closes the circuit and the temperature stops rising immediately.
Here is some physics again: A heating circuit delivers 200 W at a delta T of 3°C (5.4°F) and a flow rate of 1 liter per minute (0.26 gallons per minute).
A computer, monitors, laptop, and one person alone already generate about 400 W.
Not reacting to that and continuing to heat with 600 W cannot be sensible when a proper control is an alternative.
jens.knoedel schrieb:
You know that proper cooling doesn’t work with underfloor heating, right?Apparently you have no practical experience here either. My experience: it works just as well as heating!
In winter, when heating, I experience a delta T of sometimes over 30°C (54°F) between inside and outside.
In summer, when cooling, rarely more than 5 to 10°C (9 to 18°F), for example 23°C (73°F) inside and 30°C (86°F) outside, that’s just a 7°C (13°F) delta T.
This can be cooled very well.
jens.knoedel schrieb:
Then please install appropriate humidity sensors in every room or at least in the manifold cabinet.With KNX that’s absolutely no problem. Though installing them in every room of course doesn’t make sense.
Actually, evaluating the exhaust air humidity from the controlled ventilation system is usually sufficient.
jens.knoedel schrieb:
Just switch it on and let it run.Haha, you’re something else—first saying it can’t be done and must be extremely complicated, then saying you just do it somehow and wonder why it doesn’t work?!jens.knoedel schrieb:
What kind of rooms are you referring to with “&Co”? What’s the point of not cooling some rooms? Equally pointless in a house as not heating some rooms.When cooling, I want the hydraulic balancing almost exactly the opposite of when heating. That’s what a sensible ERR control does automatically. For example, when heating, I want minimal flow in the bedrooms to prevent them from getting too warm while sleeping.
When cooling, naturally I want the flow as high as possible there.
For bathrooms it’s exactly the opposite: in winter fully open to keep them nice and warm.
In summer fully closed so they don’t get too cold. And bathrooms can quickly get condensation problems if cold water is pumped through the floor or walls.
Ultimately, this applies to all rooms. With ERR I set the target temperature once and it is maintained. You don’t have to go to the manifold box twice a year to redo the hydraulic balancing.
But honestly, what’s the point of this discussion?
How can someone get the idea of making their house smart, spending tens of thousands of euros, and then try to save a hundred on an actuator plus a few tens for control valves because someone on the internet said “an underfloor heating system regulates itself”?
We have switchable outlets, but they are grouped. For example, all outlets for Sonos speakers on the ground floor, and an outlet group for entertainment in the living room. This way, unnecessary devices can be turned off when away or sleeping, saving electricity. In my opinion, this is very convenient and practical.
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