ᐅ Heating Concept for New Construction – Heat Pump vs. Masonry Heater?
Created on: 23 Oct 2023 21:39
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patalmtt
Hello everyone,
we are newcomers to housebuilding from Franconia and will probably have a good chance of getting a plot from the municipality, so we will have the honor to build. With 3 children and an estimated 500–600 sqm (5400–6500 sq ft) plot, the house should roughly be 150–180 sqm (1600–1900 sq ft).
Background
In our last house from the 1990s, we installed solid oak parquet flooring and really liked it. Currently, we have an apartment/house built in 1997 with tiles throughout, heating radiators plus underfloor heating. There is also a large traditional masonry stove which we feed with wood from my brother-in-law. Last year we used about 9 cords (Ster) of wood, and the heating was kept at minimum (just to avoid cold tiles).
For the new build, we would like a tiled stove plus wooden floors, but a heating system for vacations, old age, or illness must not be missing. Retrofitting heating later is not really an option.
Another idea that came to mind was to use ceiling heating instead of underfloor heating. Wood planks nailed to a batten substructure resting on the concrete slabs including impact sound insulation, etc. This would save screed and not stress the wooden floor with underfloor heating, although ceiling heating probably costs more extra than saving the screed? I am not fond of wall heating or infrared. Noise from the planks does not bother us, and with solid wood we don’t need underfloor heating for comfort.
Some of you might be horrified by these ideas, but I am really interested in alternatives beyond photovoltaic plus air-to-water heat pump that are not purely a financial luxury.
What are typical electricity consumptions for option 1 in a 150 sqm (1600 sq ft) single-family house? (Obviously it depends, but I have no sense whether we are talking about 3000 or 8000 kWh; so far I mainly know oil heating.)
Once we have the confirmation, we will also contact builders and others for quotes.
Thanks for your input and best regards
PATALMTT
we are newcomers to housebuilding from Franconia and will probably have a good chance of getting a plot from the municipality, so we will have the honor to build. With 3 children and an estimated 500–600 sqm (5400–6500 sq ft) plot, the house should roughly be 150–180 sqm (1600–1900 sq ft).
Background
In our last house from the 1990s, we installed solid oak parquet flooring and really liked it. Currently, we have an apartment/house built in 1997 with tiles throughout, heating radiators plus underfloor heating. There is also a large traditional masonry stove which we feed with wood from my brother-in-law. Last year we used about 9 cords (Ster) of wood, and the heating was kept at minimum (just to avoid cold tiles).
For the new build, we would like a tiled stove plus wooden floors, but a heating system for vacations, old age, or illness must not be missing. Retrofitting heating later is not really an option.
- We often read that photovoltaic systems combined with an air-to-water heat pump and underfloor heating are common.
- I also find ground loop collectors interesting. Depending on how much work we do ourselves, costs get close to the first option. Since we want to install solid hardwood flooring, summer cooling capability might be very limited.
- Heating with wood is enjoyable in a 1990s old building because cheap family wood really saves money. Now probably a small masonry stove would be enough to properly heat a KfW55-standard house. However, additional costs for chimney sweeps, chimneys, and of course the stove itself must be considered. I have wondered whether a hot water heat pump combined with an “emergency electric heater” and a masonry stove would work? Electric towel radiators. In an emergency, a heat pump could still be retrofitted if the pipes are already installed. Are such concepts known or is this economically nonsense? Heat pumps are not cheap these days. I have also read that masonry stoves can be operated reasonably well in KfW55 houses.
Another idea that came to mind was to use ceiling heating instead of underfloor heating. Wood planks nailed to a batten substructure resting on the concrete slabs including impact sound insulation, etc. This would save screed and not stress the wooden floor with underfloor heating, although ceiling heating probably costs more extra than saving the screed? I am not fond of wall heating or infrared. Noise from the planks does not bother us, and with solid wood we don’t need underfloor heating for comfort.
Some of you might be horrified by these ideas, but I am really interested in alternatives beyond photovoltaic plus air-to-water heat pump that are not purely a financial luxury.
What are typical electricity consumptions for option 1 in a 150 sqm (1600 sq ft) single-family house? (Obviously it depends, but I have no sense whether we are talking about 3000 or 8000 kWh; so far I mainly know oil heating.)
Once we have the confirmation, we will also contact builders and others for quotes.
Thanks for your input and best regards
PATALMTT
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HoisleBauer2225 Oct 2023 23:00patalmtt schrieb:
I find the ring trench collector interesting as well.I would take a very close look at the cost-effectiveness. If you hire a company to dig the trenches and don’t or can’t do anything yourself (which is very understandable with three children), it will cost you several thousand euros. And that expense has to justify the small benefit (maybe increasing the coefficient of performance from 4 to 5)? Even in a very optimistic scenario, that’s a maximum of 20% savings on energy costs. If your annual electricity costs for a heat pump are €900, you save €180 (=20%) per year. If the additional cost for the whole brine heat pump system were only €3600 (you can still dream…), it would only pay off after 20 years(!). But by then, something is surely broken or you have problems with the water system. Also, maintenance by an external company is certainly more expensive.My opinion: It’s better to invest the money in a quality photovoltaic system and, if economically reasonable, in battery storage. With good orientation, that pays off in less than 10 years.
Regarding the masonry heater: Because of the weight (with heat storage stones easily up to 1500 kilograms (3300 pounds)!), you will need reinforced screed. That costs extra as well...
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WilderSueden25 Oct 2023 23:24Nothing should normally break on the brine pipe itself. This way, you save the outdoor unit of the split air-to-water heat pump, which also doesn’t last forever. The actual brine-to-water heat pump is then comparable to the indoor unit of an air-to-water heat pump.
When working with wood, don’t forget the risk of physical injury. Saws and wood splitters are somewhat more dangerous than the heat pump’s control button.
When working with wood, don’t forget the risk of physical injury. Saws and wood splitters are somewhat more dangerous than the heat pump’s control button.
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HoisleBauer2225 Oct 2023 23:58Further considerations for the trench collector: planting possibilities are limited (most likely only certain shallow-rooted plants). It can cause issues later if you want to install a rainwater harvesting tank, a pool, or a deep foundation for any purpose. Building over it (such as a garden shed) is also limited.
patalmtt schrieb:
Instantaneous water heaters/domestic hot water heat pumps probably consume a lot of electricity or are not much cheaper than the heat pump solution in terms of costs? I would not recommend instantaneous water heaters with 3 children. They are more suitable for single or couple households that otherwise have high standby losses from hot water storage tanks. A domestic hot water heat pump can be used if you don’t have a heat pump for heating and only rely on wood. Costs are around 2,500–3,500 EUR (approx. 2.5–3.5k) for materials plus 2 hours of installation and the usual surcharge for the boss’s (E)-SUV, so about 5,000 EUR (approx. 5k) in new construction. The domestic hot water heat pump is not more efficient for producing hot water than a central system.
patalmtt schrieb:
A masonry heater should provide some thermal inertia, but we might have to consider it a luxury. In new construction, anything beyond a standard heating system is a luxury, or economically speaking, nonsense. Due to the requirements of the building energy law, you already have a low heating demand of maybe 20–30 kWh/m² per year. Covering that with ONE expensive system is already a considerable effort, but having two expensive systems (masonry heater starting at 15,000 EUR (approx. 15k)) won’t pay off even without fuel costs.
Fine dust is also an issue in rural areas. There are always some well-meaning neighbors who throw everything that burns into the fire. Dirty pallets, wet wood, gift wrapping paper, and pizza boxes.
We also once planned to have a fun stove. Somehow, the chimney was always in the way, and it’s not free either. So the stove was removed.
We also once planned to have a fun stove. Somehow, the chimney was always in the way, and it’s not free either. So the stove was removed.
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