ᐅ Heating Concept for New Construction – Heat Pump vs. Masonry Heater?
Created on: 23 Oct 2023 21:39
P
patalmtt
Hello everyone,
we are newcomers to housebuilding from Franconia and will probably have a good chance of getting a plot from the municipality, so we will have the honor to build. With 3 children and an estimated 500–600 sqm (5400–6500 sq ft) plot, the house should roughly be 150–180 sqm (1600–1900 sq ft).
Background
In our last house from the 1990s, we installed solid oak parquet flooring and really liked it. Currently, we have an apartment/house built in 1997 with tiles throughout, heating radiators plus underfloor heating. There is also a large traditional masonry stove which we feed with wood from my brother-in-law. Last year we used about 9 cords (Ster) of wood, and the heating was kept at minimum (just to avoid cold tiles).
For the new build, we would like a tiled stove plus wooden floors, but a heating system for vacations, old age, or illness must not be missing. Retrofitting heating later is not really an option.
Another idea that came to mind was to use ceiling heating instead of underfloor heating. Wood planks nailed to a batten substructure resting on the concrete slabs including impact sound insulation, etc. This would save screed and not stress the wooden floor with underfloor heating, although ceiling heating probably costs more extra than saving the screed? I am not fond of wall heating or infrared. Noise from the planks does not bother us, and with solid wood we don’t need underfloor heating for comfort.
Some of you might be horrified by these ideas, but I am really interested in alternatives beyond photovoltaic plus air-to-water heat pump that are not purely a financial luxury.
What are typical electricity consumptions for option 1 in a 150 sqm (1600 sq ft) single-family house? (Obviously it depends, but I have no sense whether we are talking about 3000 or 8000 kWh; so far I mainly know oil heating.)
Once we have the confirmation, we will also contact builders and others for quotes.
Thanks for your input and best regards
PATALMTT
we are newcomers to housebuilding from Franconia and will probably have a good chance of getting a plot from the municipality, so we will have the honor to build. With 3 children and an estimated 500–600 sqm (5400–6500 sq ft) plot, the house should roughly be 150–180 sqm (1600–1900 sq ft).
Background
In our last house from the 1990s, we installed solid oak parquet flooring and really liked it. Currently, we have an apartment/house built in 1997 with tiles throughout, heating radiators plus underfloor heating. There is also a large traditional masonry stove which we feed with wood from my brother-in-law. Last year we used about 9 cords (Ster) of wood, and the heating was kept at minimum (just to avoid cold tiles).
For the new build, we would like a tiled stove plus wooden floors, but a heating system for vacations, old age, or illness must not be missing. Retrofitting heating later is not really an option.
- We often read that photovoltaic systems combined with an air-to-water heat pump and underfloor heating are common.
- I also find ground loop collectors interesting. Depending on how much work we do ourselves, costs get close to the first option. Since we want to install solid hardwood flooring, summer cooling capability might be very limited.
- Heating with wood is enjoyable in a 1990s old building because cheap family wood really saves money. Now probably a small masonry stove would be enough to properly heat a KfW55-standard house. However, additional costs for chimney sweeps, chimneys, and of course the stove itself must be considered. I have wondered whether a hot water heat pump combined with an “emergency electric heater” and a masonry stove would work? Electric towel radiators. In an emergency, a heat pump could still be retrofitted if the pipes are already installed. Are such concepts known or is this economically nonsense? Heat pumps are not cheap these days. I have also read that masonry stoves can be operated reasonably well in KfW55 houses.
Another idea that came to mind was to use ceiling heating instead of underfloor heating. Wood planks nailed to a batten substructure resting on the concrete slabs including impact sound insulation, etc. This would save screed and not stress the wooden floor with underfloor heating, although ceiling heating probably costs more extra than saving the screed? I am not fond of wall heating or infrared. Noise from the planks does not bother us, and with solid wood we don’t need underfloor heating for comfort.
Some of you might be horrified by these ideas, but I am really interested in alternatives beyond photovoltaic plus air-to-water heat pump that are not purely a financial luxury.
What are typical electricity consumptions for option 1 in a 150 sqm (1600 sq ft) single-family house? (Obviously it depends, but I have no sense whether we are talking about 3000 or 8000 kWh; so far I mainly know oil heating.)
Once we have the confirmation, we will also contact builders and others for quotes.
Thanks for your input and best regards
PATALMTT
R
RotorMotor25 Oct 2023 14:30If the insulation is reasonably good, as is generally required for new buildings, a heating appliance usually becomes uncomfortably warm.
In addition, there are exhaust gases, fine dust, dirt, and maintenance work.
You really have to consider it a hobby.
In addition, there are exhaust gases, fine dust, dirt, and maintenance work.
You really have to consider it a hobby.
Wood provides triple the warmth.
You need storage space, which should not be underestimated, especially as plot sizes are getting smaller.
The chimney needs to be installed somewhere, and the chimney sweep also costs money.
Furthermore, no one knows when the next regulations regarding fine dust emissions will come into effect.
By the way, the 50 Euro per running meter (RM) is quite cheap. Currently, it costs 79 Euro (not necessarily hardwood) here and has been even higher before. However, I believe the prices will stabilize again.
You need storage space, which should not be underestimated, especially as plot sizes are getting smaller.
The chimney needs to be installed somewhere, and the chimney sweep also costs money.
Furthermore, no one knows when the next regulations regarding fine dust emissions will come into effect.
By the way, the 50 Euro per running meter (RM) is quite cheap. Currently, it costs 79 Euro (not necessarily hardwood) here and has been even higher before. However, I believe the prices will stabilize again.
Thanks for the information. I’ll try to summarize:
- Nailing hardwood flooring would be a DIY task for us, but since we don’t like cold floors, glued hardwood would probably also work.
- Most likely, a heat pump would be necessary. Without any 'automatic' heating system, there’s a risk that we won’t keep up with firewood supply eventually. Tankless water heaters or hot water heat pumps probably use a lot of electricity or are not much cheaper than the heat pump solution.
- The mentioned electricity consumption of 3000 kWh would be WITHOUT a heat pump for a 150 m² (1,615 sq ft) single-family house, right? We already used 4000 kWh with oil heating and two children.
- A masonry heater could be installed in an Eff-House 55 (oven builder, wood stove technician, chimney sweep). The cost for one cubic meter of spruce firewood is currently 65 Euros for us (patalmtt’s tractor also uses diesel). Cutting wood is a great balance to office work. Reference values for heat pump electricity consumption would be useful here again.
- In this village, everyone uses wood heating and no one minds. I also find the odor and fine dust emissions very moderate. Our city apartment near a main road was much worse. But I don’t want to start that discussion here.
R
RotorMotor25 Oct 2023 21:03patalmtt schrieb:
Thanks for the information. I’ll try to summarize:
- A masonry heater in an Eff-House 55 is possible (stove builder, wood, chimney sweep, fireplace). Currently, one cubic meter of spruce firewood costs 65 euros for us (my brother-in-law’s tractor also consumes diesel).
Dertill has already commented somewhat on the costs.
Here’s a simple calculation again: 65 euros for 1300 kWh amounts to about 5 cents/kWh.
With a heat pump, it is quite possible to reach a seasonal performance factor (SPF) of 5, and with heat pump electricity at 25 cents/kWh, this also results in heating energy costs of 5 cents/kWh via the heat pump.
Considering that a fireplace cannot be used to heat domestic hot water and heats very unevenly—sometimes very warm, then cooling down again—as well as the additional effort, storage space needed, and so on, it doesn’t seem very reasonable.
RotorMotor schrieb:
Dertill already wrote something about the costs.
Here’s a simple calculation: 65€ for 1300kWh equals about 5 cents/kWh. With a heat pump, you can easily achieve a seasonal performance factor of 5, and at 25 cents/kWh for heat pump electricity, that also equals 5 cents/kWh for heating energy via the heat pump.
If you consider that a fireplace can’t be used for hot water, heats very unevenly—so sometimes it’s very warm and then cools down again—requires extra work, needs storage space, and so on, it doesn’t seem very practical.Thanks for the input; now I’ll talk to my wife about the campfire romance. A masonry heater should provide some thermal inertia, but maybe we’ll have to classify it as a luxury...Similar topics