ᐅ Architectural Design Phases 1-4 – Which Documents Are Required?
Created on: 20 May 2022 22:06
P
prisma17
Hello,
we have signed an architect agreement with a planner for service phases 1-4. Now, due to various developments, we have decided not to proceed with the construction and want to cancel the planning contract. The planner has sent us an invoice, or rather just stated the amount he wants to charge for phases 1-4. The sum is around 12,000 + VAT.
We are now wondering which documents he should have at least produced – apart from a finalized dimensioned floor plan, a site layout on the plot, and the elevations of the house, we don’t have any other documents. We don’t know if he has already prepared others – we don’t want to rule it out – but he should be able to provide those to us. He verbally told us the construction costs would be around 300,000. We definitely went through several iterations of the floor plan and even changed the type of house. Still, in our view, not much has happened so far that would allow us to submit a building permit / planning permission application. Since the plot is still being developed, there are no surveys or similar reports yet.
What documents should he at least provide to us?
I want to clarify that we were aware from the beginning that planning involves significant costs, and we want to pay him fairly for the services provided—there is no question about that. However, during discussions, he hinted that he is now making us “pay dearly” because we are not going ahead with the build. He originally quoted us a significantly lower price for the four phases at the start. For now, we have decided to review his invoice carefully. At the moment, it is just the bare amount without any explanation or breakdown. If he can clearly justify this to us, we will consider it a learning experience.
Thanks in advance for your assessment!
we have signed an architect agreement with a planner for service phases 1-4. Now, due to various developments, we have decided not to proceed with the construction and want to cancel the planning contract. The planner has sent us an invoice, or rather just stated the amount he wants to charge for phases 1-4. The sum is around 12,000 + VAT.
We are now wondering which documents he should have at least produced – apart from a finalized dimensioned floor plan, a site layout on the plot, and the elevations of the house, we don’t have any other documents. We don’t know if he has already prepared others – we don’t want to rule it out – but he should be able to provide those to us. He verbally told us the construction costs would be around 300,000. We definitely went through several iterations of the floor plan and even changed the type of house. Still, in our view, not much has happened so far that would allow us to submit a building permit / planning permission application. Since the plot is still being developed, there are no surveys or similar reports yet.
What documents should he at least provide to us?
I want to clarify that we were aware from the beginning that planning involves significant costs, and we want to pay him fairly for the services provided—there is no question about that. However, during discussions, he hinted that he is now making us “pay dearly” because we are not going ahead with the build. He originally quoted us a significantly lower price for the four phases at the start. For now, we have decided to review his invoice carefully. At the moment, it is just the bare amount without any explanation or breakdown. If he can clearly justify this to us, we will consider it a learning experience.
Thanks in advance for your assessment!
SandraAnne schrieb:
What can really go wrong if you pick the wrong one? I already linked you the thread history from @Gerddieter (???)
SandraAnne schrieb:
What exactly should be a warning sign?
A really awful floor plan because it’s super convoluted? Or rooms that are completely dark because the windows were planned incorrectly? Or a cost estimate way off? Things like that? Awful floor plans are, firstly, rare and secondly not a big issue (because it’s a mistake a layperson can usually spot). Underestimating or miscalculating costs, yes, those are the dangerous “professional errors.” But I have also seen plans that clearly showed the architect was an M.C. Escher fan or plainly lacked basic spatial awareness (like staircases with, to put it mildly, decreasing headroom).
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K
k-man202117 Jan 2023 19:12SandraAnne schrieb:
What can really go wrong if you pick the wrong person? A few examples:
- Call from the architect: "Um, the ground floor ceiling will be cast at the plant the day after tomorrow. Please tell me by tomorrow morning where recessed lights should be placed." WTF – lighting design overnight???
- Waste vent pipe forgotten in the plans – consequence: pipe has to run through the study, creating an unplanned corner there
- Unplanned step to the terrace on the upper floor because flat roof insulation was not considered
- Slope for drainage not taken into account on the access path, so proper water runoff is impossible
- Insulation material not checked; partly wrong material installed
- Conflicts among tradespeople over many detailed issues, e.g., window installation, because no details were planned and no one knew what was correct
I could continue the list—all unfortunately experienced. Especially frustrating were last-minute actions like with the lighting. That’s why we’re now working with a different architect who only issues the tender once all details are drawn. It takes longer until construction starts and is more expensive, but I wouldn’t do it any other way.
k-man2021 schrieb:
WTF – lighting design overnight???Sorry, but even as a client, you should have some thoughts about lighting in advance. Given the stage of construction mentioned, that should be obvious. The rest, well, is not really worth it.Other than that, we have now completed design phases 1 to 3 with our architect (fixed price close to HOAI Zone III mid-range), and I would do it the same way again. The input regarding our ideas and the architect’s suggestions were worth the cost. The planned house now looks completely different from what we initially envisioned as amateurs, but it is on a whole different level and, above all, coherent.
Araknis schrieb:
Sorry, but even as a client, you should give some thought to lighting in advance. It should be obvious that this happens near the progress stage mentioned. Absolutely not. My involvement in discussions with the architect takes place during design phase 3, at which point "construction progress" is still a distant future. Without change requests, this cannot be altered anymore by design phase 5; the ceiling will then be specified and constructed according to the detailed drawings. By design phase 8, I need to be able to be on a cruise or in the Himalayas; otherwise, I don’t need the architect’s site manager. A ceiling is a planned component; unless there are bomb finds or Roman artifacts, by design phase 8 there should be no events requiring intervention involving the client.
Araknis schrieb:
The input regarding our ideas and the architect’s proposals were worth the cost. The planned house now looks completely different from what we had originally roughly imagined, but it is on a whole other level and, above all, harmonious. I hear that often and gladly (even without being an architect myself, which some readers may not have realized yet).
Araknis schrieb:
Otherwise, we have now completed design phases 1–3 with our architect (lump-sum offer in the range of HOAI Zone III middle rate), and I would do it exactly the same way again. But that is not the end of the story. What comes next: general contractor or continue with architect planning and site management?
Design phases 1 to 3 are a good scope of work if you are sure of two things from the start: that you will hire a general contractor, and that you will continue with the same architect up to that point. But even then, firstly, the resting phase between phases 2 and 3 should be strictly maintained; and secondly, the architect from design phase 3 should have a second role in design phase 8.
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11ant schrieb:
Absolutely not. My involvement in the discussion with the architect takes place in design phase 3, at which point "construction progress" is still a distant future. He wrote, "ahem, the ground floor slab will be poured at the factory the day after tomorrow." THIS is the construction progress I’m referring to. The slab pouring clearly doesn’t happen during design phase 3.
11ant schrieb:
But that’s not the end of the story. What comes next: general contractor or continuing with the architect’s planning and site management?
Design phases 1 to 3 represent a good scope of services when you are certain of two things from the start: that you want to hire a general contractor, and that you will continue with the first architect up to that point. But even then, firstly, the resting period between phases 2 and 3 should be strictly observed, and secondly, the architect from design phase 3 should reappear in phase 8. No, of course not. At the start of planning, the question of general contractor or not was not yet fully decided. By now, however, we are sure we want to continue with him. It has been a very pleasant experience. I read about the resting period in your blog during the process and gave it a lot of thought; in hindsight, the process was so "calm" that we didn’t really need a specifically timed resting period.
Araknis schrieb:
He wrote "uhm, the ground floor ceiling will be cast in the factory the day after tomorrow." THIS is the construction progress I mean. The casting of the ceiling certainly does not happen during design phase 3. That was/is already clear to me. That’s exactly what I’m talking about: the ceiling casting only takes place after I have already given the architect final instructions a long time ago about where each lamp, access point, or whatever will be installed.
Araknis schrieb:
No, of course not. At the start of the planning process, it was not yet quite decided whether to work with a general contractor or not. Meanwhile, we are sure that we want to proceed with one. It was a very pleasant experience. If the point "committed for at least until the end of design phase 3" was not yet clarified, I find this scope of service unusual.
Likewise, if the decision "in favor of a general contractor" had not already been made. Splitting the process precisely after design phase 3 only makes sense if you want to build with a general contractor (especially a timber prefabricated general contractor). Then, the focus is not really on "up to design phase 3," but rather on "excluding design phase 4" (since that would otherwise be redundant).
Araknis schrieb:
I read about the dough resting during your blog and thought a lot about it. In retrospect, the process was so "calm" that we didn’t really need a specifically timed rest. The blog has a comment function, which allows asking follow-up questions. The dough resting is not about a required break, but a setting period for the intermediate planning result. The preliminary design should be allowed to "dry," like a screed before flooring is installed, before further work is done on the design. It is also important for the client’s mental process—the "mourning" work regarding the fear of missing out—that is, the anxiety that after the dice have been cast, there might have been much better design ideas, supposedly somewhere beyond the seven mountains with the seven dwarfs, which could have been even more beautiful than the preliminary design result. Letting the preliminary design "heal" (or becoming confident rather than anxious about which details still need to be revised) is extremely important. Otherwise, one goes crazy, turning the staircase back and forth 148,723 times like Princess @Shiny86, moving the partition wall between the master and children’s bathrooms again one more time, and so on; of course, "all the windows are placed wrong." For that, a phase of finalizing the planning decision (or making the final corrections) is necessary. The architect also needs to feel certain at some point that you won’t come with a thousand small changes anymore but that you will continue working in a structured way towards the goal. A crazy dog sleeps poorly; it’s no different for an architect 🙂
That some architects dislike single-family houses is partly due to the much larger amounts of money involved in residential complex projects. But it is mostly because an apartment-building developer does not constantly want hysterically to change everything again. They want to avoid creating knots in their own business workflow.
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
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