ᐅ Creating a Plan for Insulating an Old Building – How to Proceed?
Created on: 30 Aug 2022 10:30
T
Tobibi
Hello,
I’m currently trying to make a plan for how to best improve the insulation of our house. I hope I can write everything down clearly so that some of you might be able to give me tips or suggest different approaches.
We bought a large house from 1982, about 200 sqm (2,150 sq ft) of living space. There is an approximately 6-year-old heat pump for heating and hot water, and a small wood stove in the living room. The ground floor and first floor have underfloor heating, while three basement rooms and a converted room above the garage have radiators. These radiators have a separate heating circuit with their own flow temperature and are rarely used, actually not at all in the basement.
In the main bedroom on the first floor, the previous owner opened the ceiling a few years ago, creating a high space that goes up to the roof ridge. The roof was insulated at that time, but I don’t have any documentation on how well. The rest of the house remains in its original condition, so basically uninsulated.
The walls are solid brick. The wooden windows have double glazing. Many windows and the front door do not seal well, allowing noticeable drafts at some windows. The top floor ceiling is not concrete but made of joists, covered underneath on the first floor with drywall and boards on top. Between the joists, there appears to be rock wool insulation packed in.
We have a 9 kWp photovoltaic system with battery storage, which the previous owner also installed. As it currently stands, the electricity from the photovoltaic system cannot be used for the heat pump, only for other household electricity. There is a separate meter with a heating electricity contract. Surplus electricity is fed back into the grid.
I recently received the heating electricity bill, showing that from March 2021 to March 2022—one full year—we used about 12,500 kWh for heating and hot water, which I find quite high. I definitely want to take action, especially since electricity prices are rising sharply. I’m not an experienced DIYer, but I can assist and have very helpful father and father-in-law who have a lot of skills. So, some things could be done ourselves, although time is always a factor.
A no-brainer seems to be replacing the window seals and adjusting them so they close tightly again. I am already in contact with a company for this.
Next, I’m thinking about insulating the roller shutter boxes. I would probably get a company to do this as well.
I’m considering insulating the basement ceiling with insulation boards that can be glued or fixed with plugs. If there are instructions available, we would rather do that ourselves. Or should I focus on insulating the top floor ceiling or installing insulation between the rafters? Or both? Probably not at the same time—maybe one this year and the other in a year or two. What would be the better order?
Would it make sense to modify the photovoltaic system so that the electricity can be used for the heat pump? I would have to hire an electrician for that, which costs money. But then the electricity would be usable for heating, and there would be only one basic fee. On the other hand, the yield in winter is not very good, and I would lose the cheaper heating electricity tariff. I once tracked generated, fed-in, self-used, and purchased electricity over a longer period and basically concluded that the conversion might not be worthwhile. But now electricity prices are rising dramatically.
Insulating the facade and/or installing new windows is honestly too expensive for me right now. On the other hand, we will need to have the entire exterior repainted next year or the year after. That costs several thousand when done professionally, which would almost offset the cost of external wall insulation. But presumably, these two should go together—insulation and new windows—because doing only one is not sensible and could cause problems with condensation.
So, that turned out to be quite a long message. I hope it’s understandable. How would you proceed? If I forgot anything, just ask. I might also add a follow-up later.
Best regards,
Tobi
I’m currently trying to make a plan for how to best improve the insulation of our house. I hope I can write everything down clearly so that some of you might be able to give me tips or suggest different approaches.
We bought a large house from 1982, about 200 sqm (2,150 sq ft) of living space. There is an approximately 6-year-old heat pump for heating and hot water, and a small wood stove in the living room. The ground floor and first floor have underfloor heating, while three basement rooms and a converted room above the garage have radiators. These radiators have a separate heating circuit with their own flow temperature and are rarely used, actually not at all in the basement.
In the main bedroom on the first floor, the previous owner opened the ceiling a few years ago, creating a high space that goes up to the roof ridge. The roof was insulated at that time, but I don’t have any documentation on how well. The rest of the house remains in its original condition, so basically uninsulated.
The walls are solid brick. The wooden windows have double glazing. Many windows and the front door do not seal well, allowing noticeable drafts at some windows. The top floor ceiling is not concrete but made of joists, covered underneath on the first floor with drywall and boards on top. Between the joists, there appears to be rock wool insulation packed in.
We have a 9 kWp photovoltaic system with battery storage, which the previous owner also installed. As it currently stands, the electricity from the photovoltaic system cannot be used for the heat pump, only for other household electricity. There is a separate meter with a heating electricity contract. Surplus electricity is fed back into the grid.
I recently received the heating electricity bill, showing that from March 2021 to March 2022—one full year—we used about 12,500 kWh for heating and hot water, which I find quite high. I definitely want to take action, especially since electricity prices are rising sharply. I’m not an experienced DIYer, but I can assist and have very helpful father and father-in-law who have a lot of skills. So, some things could be done ourselves, although time is always a factor.
A no-brainer seems to be replacing the window seals and adjusting them so they close tightly again. I am already in contact with a company for this.
Next, I’m thinking about insulating the roller shutter boxes. I would probably get a company to do this as well.
I’m considering insulating the basement ceiling with insulation boards that can be glued or fixed with plugs. If there are instructions available, we would rather do that ourselves. Or should I focus on insulating the top floor ceiling or installing insulation between the rafters? Or both? Probably not at the same time—maybe one this year and the other in a year or two. What would be the better order?
Would it make sense to modify the photovoltaic system so that the electricity can be used for the heat pump? I would have to hire an electrician for that, which costs money. But then the electricity would be usable for heating, and there would be only one basic fee. On the other hand, the yield in winter is not very good, and I would lose the cheaper heating electricity tariff. I once tracked generated, fed-in, self-used, and purchased electricity over a longer period and basically concluded that the conversion might not be worthwhile. But now electricity prices are rising dramatically.
Insulating the facade and/or installing new windows is honestly too expensive for me right now. On the other hand, we will need to have the entire exterior repainted next year or the year after. That costs several thousand when done professionally, which would almost offset the cost of external wall insulation. But presumably, these two should go together—insulation and new windows—because doing only one is not sensible and could cause problems with condensation.
So, that turned out to be quite a long message. I hope it’s understandable. How would you proceed? If I forgot anything, just ask. I might also add a follow-up later.
Best regards,
Tobi
Regarding the energy performance certificate (EPC), I can only recommend having an individually tailored renovation roadmap subsidized by BAFA prepared. This clearly shows which building component causes which losses and where the most effective countermeasures can be applied. The energy consultant must also provide cost evidence for this.
To @Adam2112 fake news:
The Wonder Coat CE is completely irrelevant because it is untested and legally only represents the manufacturer’s claims for the marketing of an imported product.
The thermal conductivity class is determined according to DIN 4108-4:2013-02 and DIN EN 13162 to 13171. Only these values may be used by an energy consultant and must be the basis for the CE marking. A good example of this is imported windows with CE certification, which may be sold here but are not allowed to be installed according to state building regulations. This is an issue I have encountered several times during KfW or BAFA inspections in project monitoring.
Coatings are not insulation materials and therefore cannot have a thermal conductivity class. Even if someone abroad thought otherwise, the coating would still need to be applied several centimeters (inches) thick, which then raises the next issue of vapor diffusion. By the way, this is also mandatory information for calculating humidity protection proof, again according to DIN 4108, as we live in Germany.
The incorrectness of the specification can also be recognized by the fact that, according to DIN, there can be no value smaller than [B]0.001 W/(m·K).
That was unfortunate.
To @Adam2112 fake news:
The Wonder Coat CE is completely irrelevant because it is untested and legally only represents the manufacturer’s claims for the marketing of an imported product.
The thermal conductivity class is determined according to DIN 4108-4:2013-02 and DIN EN 13162 to 13171. Only these values may be used by an energy consultant and must be the basis for the CE marking. A good example of this is imported windows with CE certification, which may be sold here but are not allowed to be installed according to state building regulations. This is an issue I have encountered several times during KfW or BAFA inspections in project monitoring.
Coatings are not insulation materials and therefore cannot have a thermal conductivity class. Even if someone abroad thought otherwise, the coating would still need to be applied several centimeters (inches) thick, which then raises the next issue of vapor diffusion. By the way, this is also mandatory information for calculating humidity protection proof, again according to DIN 4108, as we live in Germany.
The incorrectness of the specification can also be recognized by the fact that, according to DIN, there can be no value smaller than [B]0.001 W/(m·K).
That was unfortunate.
parcus schrieb:
Regarding the energy performance certificate (EPC), I can only recommend having an individually BAFA-funded renovation roadmap created.
This clearly shows which building component has which losses and where to take the most effective countermeasures.
The energy consultant must also provide cost justification for this.
To @Adam2112 fake news:
The Wonder Coat CE is completely irrelevant because it is untested and legally only reflects manufacturer claims for trading an imported product.
The thermal conductivity class is determined according to DIN 4108-4:2013-02 and DIN EN 13162 to 13171. Only these values may be used by an energy consultant
and must form the basis of the CE mark. A good example here is imported windows with CE marking that may be traded here but are not allowed to be installed according to regional building codes. This is a topic I have encountered frequently in inspections related to KfW or BAFA support during construction supervision.
Coats or coatings are not insulation materials and therefore cannot have a thermal conductivity class. Even if someone abroad were to claim otherwise,
the coat would still have to be applied several centimeters thick, which would then raise the next issue of vapor diffusion. This is also a mandatory input for calculating moisture protection verification, again according to DIN 4108, since we nonetheless live in Germany.
The incorrect information is already apparent from the fact that according to DIN there is no value smaller than 0.001 W/(m·K).
Tough luck.
There is no standard for this product; those who don’t use it are the ones missing out. Diffusion is stated in the CE. Look first, then speak. Either the DIN standard must be updated or applicable EU law respected. Another person who’s read standards for breakfast but has no understanding of the subject. Is there anyone here willing to use their own common sense? Thinking is like reading standards—only more intense.
Oh Adam, are you still not giving up? This forum is clearly not the right place to sell your revolutionary product.
Unfortunately, you are the only one here behaving completely unscientifically. We would like to believe you, but you cannot convincingly explain why the product performs as you claim (the other manufacturers’ data differ from your figures: lambda 0.09–0.034).
We are supposed to just believe that it works and that you are not trying to deceive us. If you really want to sell your product, you need to manage to convince the skeptics. The product contains microspheres with a "vacuum," but these also have a shell. The shell is the weak point; they touch each other and form a thermal bridge. The acrylic resin is also no miracle. So how is it that, in combination, something unprecedented and unimaginable suddenly emerges?
May I ask what you studied?
Unfortunately, you are the only one here behaving completely unscientifically. We would like to believe you, but you cannot convincingly explain why the product performs as you claim (the other manufacturers’ data differ from your figures: lambda 0.09–0.034).
We are supposed to just believe that it works and that you are not trying to deceive us. If you really want to sell your product, you need to manage to convince the skeptics. The product contains microspheres with a "vacuum," but these also have a shell. The shell is the weak point; they touch each other and form a thermal bridge. The acrylic resin is also no miracle. So how is it that, in combination, something unprecedented and unimaginable suddenly emerges?
May I ask what you studied?
Cronos86 schrieb:
Oh Adam, you still haven’t given up? This forum is definitely not the right place to sell your revolutionary product.
Unfortunately, you’re the only one acting completely unscientific here. We would like to believe it, but you can’t convincingly explain why the product delivers what you promise (other manufacturer data differ from your claims: Lambda 0.09–0.034).
We’re supposed to just take it on faith that it works and that you’re not trying to deceive us.
If you really want to sell your product, you need to convince the skeptics.
The product has microspheres with a “vacuum,” but they also have a shell. The shell is the weak point, they come into contact and form a thermal bridge. The acrylic resin is no miracle either. So how should something unprecedented and unimaginable suddenly result from this combination?
May I ask what you studied? I’m not trying to sell anything here. As you rightly pointed out, this is the wrong place for that. I would just welcome more people being convinced by it. The properties really are incredible. You can only be convinced by seeing it in person. But I consider it a Sisyphean task to send everyone a coated sheet of metal to place on a stove top. That’s what the videos are for. If someone gets hung up on formatting or some formalities...
The numbers that some marketing agencies put in brochures are outside of my control. They have all been called out for it. Changes are being made. But as soon as Jean confirms the accuracy of the data, it will be settled. It’s a new product; anyone who has launched something knows this process and the constant correcting and adjusting. I will only discuss this with someone who has experience doing that.
I find it highly impressive how defensive everyone is here, and that apparently 10 EUR is still too much to try something out. I regularly spend huge amounts on experimenting, on a whim. Apparently, few people are like that.
Those who try it out are happy with the results.
You have the information; what you ultimately choose to do NOW is up to you.
In a few years, this will have displaced all insulation materials. The numbers are growing exponentially, and word of mouth among builders and similar players has already started. Then you will be knocking on my door anyway, since I am involved with PSC and take part in its ongoing development.
Many global players have already recognized the potential and are using it or collaborating. But no one here believes that. I already expected that, but I’m still hopeful.
So...
Happy holidays and best wishes for the end of the year to everyone actively participating here.
I will remain here and continue to contribute.
Cronos86 schrieb:
Oh Adam, you still haven’t given up? This forum is clearly the wrong place to sell your revolutionary product.
Unfortunately, you’re the only one here behaving completely unscientifically. We would like to believe, but you can’t convincingly explain why the product delivers what you promise (other manufacturers’ specifications differ from yours: lambda 0.09–0.034).
We’re supposed to just trust that it works and that you’re not trying to deceive us. If you really want to sell your product, you need to convince the skeptics.
The product contains microspheres with a “vacuum,” but these also have a shell. The shell is the weak point—they touch each other and create a thermal bridge. The acrylic resin isn’t a miracle either. So how exactly should this combination suddenly produce something unprecedented and unimaginable?
May I ask what you studied? I studied mechanical engineering at RFH in Cologne, but that doesn’t really matter. I dropped out because the tunnel vision, the specifications, duty sheets, and this whole ridiculous focus on durability were getting on my nerves. I began this work to try and improve the world because I had already seen unrealized potential in many areas. Now I’ve been doing exactly that successfully for over ten years—and in my own way.
K
KarstenausNRW24 Dec 2022 10:31Adam2112 schrieb:
It’s a new product; anyone who has ever launched something on the market knows this process of constant correction and adjustment. New? It’s been on the market for almost seven years. Considering the development time, the product should be mature by now.
And no, once a product is finished and approved, there are no major corrections anymore—unless amateurs are involved.
All old and current brochures and information outside of the “information” presented here show significantly worse—more realistic—numbers.
Adam2112 schrieb:
But at the latest when Jean confirms the accuracy of the data Excuse me? Say that again. So the numbers are manually entered and not even confirmed or approved? Neither officially certified nor declared according to standards? “Jean” is the authority who has to confirm the numbers determined by whoever? So amateurs are involved after all.