ᐅ Separate contracting for windows and roller shutters – the hardware manufacturer is blocking progress!
Created on: 16 Dec 2022 00:02
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DominicHannove
We are building with a local general contractor (GC).
When signing the contract with the GC (it had to be done quickly on our side due to the bank’s requirements), we secured a contractual agreement allowing us to remove individual trades from the contract or add items without additional costs up until the building permit / planning permission submission.
Over the past few weeks, we have used this time to obtain comparative quotes.
The only trade we would like to remove are the overpriced electric aluminum roller shutters (9 units for almost €15,000). Since we cannot / are not allowed to remove them individually, we would have to cancel the entire package (windows, roller shutters, exterior doors, and exterior window sills).
The refund for this would be:
€16,600 base price for windows and doors
+ €2,650 (foil-coated windows)
+ €480 (mullion profiles)
+ €2,020 (side entrance door)
+ €8,660 (roller shutter installation)
+ €4,070 (electric roller shutter drives)
+ €2,580 (aluminum roller shutters)
= total reimbursement of €37,060
Based on the scaled plans, we obtained comparative offers and received a very good quote:
Price for everything around €34,000 (with the following added benefits compared to the GC’s offer:
- 14/14 roller shutters instead of 9/14 roller shutters,
- sliding lift-and-slide door instead of standard patio doors,
- app control for the roller shutters instead of no app control.
Everything else is included.
However, these would be Salamander windows (separate contract) instead of Rehau windows (GC). Since the U-value is at least equivalent and I can’t find anything negative about these windows, we don’t mind.
Now our problem:
Our GC, despite multiple requests, will not provide a detailed specification (bill of quantities) for the windows and also refuses to give us the exact dimensions.
Their explanation is that the GC sends the building permit / planning permission plans to the trades (window manufacturers), who then submit their quotes. All openings are dimensioned in these plans. The process wouldn’t be changed just for our request.
However, we must decide whether or not to award the window contract separately before the building permit / planning permission submission.
Is this procedure normal?
Another concern for us is that the GC says that we could potentially lose the construction time guarantee and fixed price guarantee if our own work causes delays in the construction schedule, which is somewhat understandable.
It’s now December, and construction is planned to start in March 2023 (the building permit / planning permission should presumably be submitted this year).
Is there definitely enough time for the window manufacturer to have the windows ready on time to avoid delays?
What are typical delivery times?
Does anyone have experience with this?
Small additional question:
We have a quote for a photovoltaic system. The supplier advises us to remove the photovoltaic preparation from the GC’s contract because it is very expensive at about €1,900. They recommend approaching the construction workers directly to see if they can install an empty conduit for a few euros. They also said that nowadays, new builds usually have an enlarged electrical panel / breaker box, or you should talk directly to the electrician if needed.
The photovoltaic supplier would, in any case, always find a way to get the cables into the utility room and connect the system.
What do you think?
I would appreciate any help!
When signing the contract with the GC (it had to be done quickly on our side due to the bank’s requirements), we secured a contractual agreement allowing us to remove individual trades from the contract or add items without additional costs up until the building permit / planning permission submission.
Over the past few weeks, we have used this time to obtain comparative quotes.
The only trade we would like to remove are the overpriced electric aluminum roller shutters (9 units for almost €15,000). Since we cannot / are not allowed to remove them individually, we would have to cancel the entire package (windows, roller shutters, exterior doors, and exterior window sills).
The refund for this would be:
€16,600 base price for windows and doors
+ €2,650 (foil-coated windows)
+ €480 (mullion profiles)
+ €2,020 (side entrance door)
+ €8,660 (roller shutter installation)
+ €4,070 (electric roller shutter drives)
+ €2,580 (aluminum roller shutters)
= total reimbursement of €37,060
Based on the scaled plans, we obtained comparative offers and received a very good quote:
Price for everything around €34,000 (with the following added benefits compared to the GC’s offer:
- 14/14 roller shutters instead of 9/14 roller shutters,
- sliding lift-and-slide door instead of standard patio doors,
- app control for the roller shutters instead of no app control.
Everything else is included.
However, these would be Salamander windows (separate contract) instead of Rehau windows (GC). Since the U-value is at least equivalent and I can’t find anything negative about these windows, we don’t mind.
Now our problem:
Our GC, despite multiple requests, will not provide a detailed specification (bill of quantities) for the windows and also refuses to give us the exact dimensions.
Their explanation is that the GC sends the building permit / planning permission plans to the trades (window manufacturers), who then submit their quotes. All openings are dimensioned in these plans. The process wouldn’t be changed just for our request.
However, we must decide whether or not to award the window contract separately before the building permit / planning permission submission.
Is this procedure normal?
Another concern for us is that the GC says that we could potentially lose the construction time guarantee and fixed price guarantee if our own work causes delays in the construction schedule, which is somewhat understandable.
It’s now December, and construction is planned to start in March 2023 (the building permit / planning permission should presumably be submitted this year).
Is there definitely enough time for the window manufacturer to have the windows ready on time to avoid delays?
What are typical delivery times?
Does anyone have experience with this?
Small additional question:
We have a quote for a photovoltaic system. The supplier advises us to remove the photovoltaic preparation from the GC’s contract because it is very expensive at about €1,900. They recommend approaching the construction workers directly to see if they can install an empty conduit for a few euros. They also said that nowadays, new builds usually have an enlarged electrical panel / breaker box, or you should talk directly to the electrician if needed.
The photovoltaic supplier would, in any case, always find a way to get the cables into the utility room and connect the system.
What do you think?
I would appreciate any help!
DominicHannove schrieb:
Do I understand this correctly?
Despite savings of about €3000 and an additional value of the lift-and-slide door around €2500, plus 5 extra electric roller shutters and extras like mullion and app control – so overall, this actually amounts to an effective price difference of about €10,000, or 30% – are we better off leaving the window and roller shutter trade with the general contractor (GC)?
Reason: There will only be problems (coordination, timelines, warranty, etc.)
You would:
- rather talk to the GC again and try to negotiate (free) extras
- send the offer (I had already done that)
- suggest that the GC could work with a "cheaper" profile, for example with Gealan, Salamander, or Veka
- possibly retrofit the electric control of the roller shutters yourself (but then the roller shutter strap would always be visible, right? If I were to order it directly electric, only the control units would be visible and not the straps. Or am I completely wrong here?!
We are not setting up a complete smart home, so we don’t have a planner to consult on this.
Thanks for all your answers. You summarized that nicely. Once the contract is signed and the apparently non-negotiable scope of work is fixed, unfortunately, the opportunity for better conditions is gone. Now you have to do your best to optimize things afterward, which is much more difficult and costly than before (but it varies with each builder/GC).
Everyone I know who has built recently did not have a specialist advising them before signing regarding these issues. However, none of them had significant change requests after signing either.
P.S. Possibly you can "remove" the roller shutter strap for little money (are you doing the painting/wallpapering yourselves?)
DominicHannove schrieb:
Despite savings of about €3000 and an added value of a lift-and-slide door around €2500, 5 additional electric shutters, and extras like a mullion and app control – overall, this amounts to an effective price difference of approximately €10,000, or 30% – should we leave the scope for windows and shutters to the general contractor (GC)? From an insurance mathematics perspective, your risk of mixing contractors likely outweighs the expected "savings." Switching to a lift-and-slide door here isn’t an "added value," but rather unwise due to size and position constraints. You can’t avoid a mullion for the required secondary escape routes (which I would recommend for the guest room/K1/K2); and if the GC wants to offer you post elements next to the TV or kitchen island, I would even consider "downgrading" those (to fixed/turn instead of tilt-turn/turn – we already discussed this topic with @Pinkiponk).
DominicHannove schrieb:
- Suggesting the GC could work with a "cheaper" profile, e.g. Gealan, Salamander, or Veka
- Possibly retrofit electric control for the shutters yourself (but then the shutter strap would always be visibly open, right? If I ordered direct electric operation, only the control elements would be visible, not the straps. Or am I missing something big here?!
We won’t be setting up a complete smart home, so we also don’t have a planner to rely on. This is the first time I’ve heard Veka from you; previously you mentioned Rehau (which I consider equivalent). Gealan is not "cheap," but co-extrusion is simply a better solution compared to foil finishes. I would leave the shutter boxes open until the shaft replacement. A programmable logic controller (PLC) isn’t more expensive but simply more professional than a patchwork with proprietary apps (and a fruit bowl full of remote controls *LOL*). I’ll refrain from commenting on the number and size of your misjudgments unless I haven’t been clear enough yet 🙂
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
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xMisterDx17 Dec 2022 23:42Without windows, electricians, plumbers, and other tradespeople refuse to start work. My neighbor even waited nearly 6 months for windows...
Any delay like this will be entirely your responsibility, and there is a possibility that the fixed price agreement will be voided because the general contractor cannot keep to the construction schedule and has to order materials later at higher costs.
Also, if the windows are drafty, there are leaks, the blower door test fails, etc., it will always be blamed on the windows and shutters installed by yourself.
Anyone building a turnkey house with a general contractor should leave all this to the contractor. Otherwise, you need to work with an architect and contract each trade separately.
Any delay like this will be entirely your responsibility, and there is a possibility that the fixed price agreement will be voided because the general contractor cannot keep to the construction schedule and has to order materials later at higher costs.
Also, if the windows are drafty, there are leaks, the blower door test fails, etc., it will always be blamed on the windows and shutters installed by yourself.
Anyone building a turnkey house with a general contractor should leave all this to the contractor. Otherwise, you need to work with an architect and contract each trade separately.
11ant schrieb:
This is the first time I’m hearing about Veka from you; you previously mentioned Rehau (which I actually consider to be equivalent). Gealan is not "cheap," rather co-extrusion is simply a more reasonable solution compared to foil lamination nonsense. It’s fine that you chair the Gealan acrylic fan club. However, I have to disagree with you that acrylic (available from other manufacturers as well) is the only solution that truly works. For plastic windows with a co-extruded acrylic layer, relative to their low sales volume, damages or complaints occur just as often or rarely as with foil laminated windows.
profil65 schrieb:
It’s fine that you are the chairman of the Gealan acrylic fan club. I am not; my fan club actually promotes aluminum. I don’t specifically prefer Gealan either, but generally consider coextrusion better than foil lamination. Even better, in my opinion, would be thoroughly colored granulate.
profil65 schrieb:
But I have to disagree that acrylic (which is also available from another manufacturer) is the only thing that truly matters. For plastic windows with coextruded acrylic layers, there are just as many (or as few) defects and complaints relative to the low sales volume as with foil-laminated windows. No product is completely free of complaints, but different materials and manufacturing processes have different suitability and durability expectations. If you can list the manufacturers of coextruded PVC windows, I would be glad to hear them.
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
11ant schrieb:
I would prefer solid color granules even more. Solid color (granules) is a nice dream that has been dreamed repeatedly since the early days of plastic windows.
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