Hello everyone,
My husband and I attended a home exhibition today featuring a local timber house builder (Schleswig-Holstein) and there we learned about the Vestaxx window heating system.
Is there anyone here who has experience with the Vestaxx window heating?
At first, it sounds unusual to have the heating integrated into the windows. For the triple-glazed windows, a nanotechnology-based, invisible layer is applied to the inner surface of the innermost pane, which warms the glass up to 40 degrees Celsius (104°F) via infrared and heats the room. The warmth actually felt very comfortable, and the windows were completely cold on the outside (today’s temperature was below 10 degrees Celsius (50°F)). Allegedly, the Vestaxx window heating transfers 92% of its heat to the room, and the Technical University of Berlin has tested this Vestaxx window heating system and rated it positively. It appears to have been on the market only recently.
Overall, I find this quite interesting. It is significantly cheaper than other heating systems, allows individual control of each room, and unlike underfloor heating, it is very responsive.
Of course, this only makes sense in a low-energy house (the timber builder mainly constructs 40+ standard homes), as the system runs on electricity. In that case, the Vestaxx window heating is said to consume very little power.
This is my impression from the expo; of course, they want to sell the system.
What are your experiences with Vestaxx? Have you heard of this system before? Could it be an alternative to conventional heating? Does it have a future?
My husband and I attended a home exhibition today featuring a local timber house builder (Schleswig-Holstein) and there we learned about the Vestaxx window heating system.
Is there anyone here who has experience with the Vestaxx window heating?
At first, it sounds unusual to have the heating integrated into the windows. For the triple-glazed windows, a nanotechnology-based, invisible layer is applied to the inner surface of the innermost pane, which warms the glass up to 40 degrees Celsius (104°F) via infrared and heats the room. The warmth actually felt very comfortable, and the windows were completely cold on the outside (today’s temperature was below 10 degrees Celsius (50°F)). Allegedly, the Vestaxx window heating transfers 92% of its heat to the room, and the Technical University of Berlin has tested this Vestaxx window heating system and rated it positively. It appears to have been on the market only recently.
Overall, I find this quite interesting. It is significantly cheaper than other heating systems, allows individual control of each room, and unlike underfloor heating, it is very responsive.
Of course, this only makes sense in a low-energy house (the timber builder mainly constructs 40+ standard homes), as the system runs on electricity. In that case, the Vestaxx window heating is said to consume very little power.
This is my impression from the expo; of course, they want to sell the system.
What are your experiences with Vestaxx? Have you heard of this system before? Could it be an alternative to conventional heating? Does it have a future?
R
RotorMotor9 Oct 2022 18:24The managing director almost always manages to make me give up, but because of the fellow contributors, I’m giving it another try.
I still truly hope that the engineer simply lacks business management knowledge and that this is not a matter of malice.
Wrong. I am not calculating photovoltaic systems here because this is about heating systems. They only appear in heating comparisons to adjust the electricity price.
Both heating systems have acquisition costs. One is about €40,000 (approx. $44,000) and the other around €15,000 (approx. $16,500).
That means, if I want to determine the difference, I calculate the difference between the two.
With this difference, I can calculate how the investment advantage is offset under different operating costs.
That is a pure false accusation. I have carefully planned and calculated my system technology.
So far, I have been able to convince everyone except you.
It is generally agreed that the only part of a house that can generate income (apart from renting) is a photovoltaic system.
You seem to have discovered this too and are now using it as a sleight of hand trick to make your product look good.
It is called a sleight of hand trick because the investment in a photovoltaic system and the investment in a heating system can be – and must be – calculated completely independently (as I have demonstrated in detail) in order to be objective.
We have also already refuted the argument about limited budgets several times. That’s what banks, subsidized loans, etc. are for.
Then maybe you should just address my calculation?
Without photovoltaics, without electric cars, without house electricity – just heating systems (warm house, hot water).
Unfortunately, you don’t provide any experience regarding window heating here either, but only say that you can buy a photovoltaic system.
Seems there isn’t much positive to say about it?
Mixed with a few insults and claims about my knowledge of heat pumps.
Where are the reports from customers, scientists, and energy consultants?
I have calculated very seriously, but unfortunately, this has not been addressed.
Please show a calculation according to VDI 2067.
So far you haven’t posted one here, and I can’t find any on your website either.
I still truly hope that the engineer simply lacks business management knowledge and that this is not a matter of malice.
Vestaxx GmbH schrieb:
I’m laughing to death – he has no arguments left, and anyone who calculates the payback period of a photovoltaic system as 100 years – like you did in one of your recent posts – should first educate themselves and not make such nonsense calculations.
Wrong. I am not calculating photovoltaic systems here because this is about heating systems. They only appear in heating comparisons to adjust the electricity price.
Vestaxx GmbH schrieb:
So far, it is not clear to ME why you deduct €5000 for a BWWP and €10,000 for a window heating system from a €40,000 investment for an air-to-water heat pump and then continue calculating with €25,000.
Both heating systems have acquisition costs. One is about €40,000 (approx. $44,000) and the other around €15,000 (approx. $16,500).
That means, if I want to determine the difference, I calculate the difference between the two.
With this difference, I can calculate how the investment advantage is offset under different operating costs.
Vestaxx GmbH schrieb:
At some point, you committed to the heat pump system and trusted your heating installer. Now he has your money and is happy. You’re trying to rationalize it here – but you’re failing miserably.
That is a pure false accusation. I have carefully planned and calculated my system technology.
So far, I have been able to convince everyone except you.
Vestaxx GmbH schrieb:
What exactly in my calculation is wrong??? I know: it’s that IT doesn’t suit YOU! What is to be considered STRICTLY SEPARATELY? You can, if you want, consider everything strictly separately, but in the end, it always comes down to the same total.
It is generally agreed that the only part of a house that can generate income (apart from renting) is a photovoltaic system.
You seem to have discovered this too and are now using it as a sleight of hand trick to make your product look good.
It is called a sleight of hand trick because the investment in a photovoltaic system and the investment in a heating system can be – and must be – calculated completely independently (as I have demonstrated in detail) in order to be objective.
We have also already refuted the argument about limited budgets several times. That’s what banks, subsidized loans, etc. are for.
Vestaxx GmbH schrieb:
I thought one could argue with you factually based on clear numbers. Now you accuse me of sleight of hand – meaning fraud! That’s an outrage! And it does not do this forum any good.
Then maybe you should just address my calculation?
Without photovoltaics, without electric cars, without house electricity – just heating systems (warm house, hot water).
Vestaxx GmbH schrieb:
People here want to ask questions and learn from experience. You only have experience with heat pumps and no clue at all about window heating. It reassures me that probably people like you used to mock heat pumps as voodoo, yet they still gained acceptance. Eventually, every system becomes outdated for the constantly evolving market.
Right now, I’m thinking of the saying “If you don’t know, you should just...”
Unfortunately, you don’t provide any experience regarding window heating here either, but only say that you can buy a photovoltaic system.
Seems there isn’t much positive to say about it?
Mixed with a few insults and claims about my knowledge of heat pumps.
Vestaxx GmbH schrieb:
We – as such an unserious company – have dozens of customers who confirm my above-mentioned calculation with consumption data. But apparently, they must all be crazy or, better yet, paid by us.
Scientists and energy consultants also confirm the above calculation – but ROTORMOTOR is much smarter than everyone else.
Where are the reports from customers, scientists, and energy consultants?
Vestaxx GmbH schrieb:
Before you tell everyone here that we are an unreliable company, you should lead by example in seriousness.
I have never claimed that direct electric heating is more energy efficient than a heat pump and therefore don’t have to make it look better than it is.
I will watch this a while longer and will only respond to genuine, factual posts and questions.
I have calculated very seriously, but unfortunately, this has not been addressed.
Vestaxx GmbH schrieb:
When expert calculations (VDI 2067) are referenced here, they are dismissed as nonsense. So you are also smarter than the experts of the VDI. I wouldn’t claim that for myself.
Please show a calculation according to VDI 2067.
So far you haven’t posted one here, and I can’t find any on your website either.
C
chand19869 Oct 2022 18:28Folks… if you include the additional costs of the heat pump with interest in the cost calculation, it doesn’t matter at all whether you have photovoltaic panels or not.
A lot of text for a simple fact.
A lot of text for a simple fact.
RotorMotor schrieb:
The managing director almost always manages to make me want to give up, but thanks to the fellow forum members, I’m giving it another try.
I still really hope that the engineer simply lacks business management knowledge and that it’s not intentional malice. At first, I thought the same, but it’s just marketing nonsense. You can tell by the passive-aggressive attitude, occasionally interrupted by open hostility, which is then disguised with consultant jargon whenever he encounters someone who disagrees with him.
Examples with numbers are usually dismissed—also passively aggressively—like “I congratulate you on your system! REALLY FROM THE HEART!!1elf,” and then countered with the usual “photovoltaics make our system cost-effective” nonsense.
Anyone who refutes this or questions it critically, like asking “what would the total cost calculation look like if we completely exclude PV systems,” is brushed off with “just watch our promotional video”—oh no, I mean “webinar.”
Any discussion is pointless; it’s just a sales pitch.
At most, I’d respond to his posts with emojis, but none express an eye roll well enough.
Vestaxx GmbH schrieb:
First of all, thanks for the factual contribution.
What you’re referring to are the glued-on heating wires of rear windows, which are more likely to get damaged by cleaning than by stretching. But whatever. Our heating layer is fully fused into the glass. The layer cannot separate from the glass. It is comparable to the coatings found on, for example, smartphones or flat screens.
Failures in underfloor heating systems are probably quite rare as well, but when they occur, they can become very expensive. However, I haven’t seen any figures. Or are there no long-term studies providing reliable data?
Saying that the marketed technology is better than or comparable to something else doesn’t help anyone here. So: I’m explicitly asking again for data. How often do these window heaters fail, and what types of faults occur that require what level of effort to repair?
P.S. I am not against new technologies—in fact, quite the opposite. I work in IT, so that wouldn’t even be possible. But repackaging old stuff isn’t new technology. Here’s another example: when I did community service, I lived on a farm. The living room and kitchen had electric ceiling heating. I’m 55 years old—how long ago that was, you can guess; I honestly don’t remember exactly ;-)
V
Vestaxx GmbH9 Oct 2022 20:28OWLer schrieb:
Dear Managing Director,
A few days ago, I already asked you to share your figures and calculations—in the proper manner of a solid business case—in tabular form, for example as a screenshot from a spreadsheet program here.
The fact that this has repeatedly not been done, according to my assumption, can only have three reasons:
1. You do not master such software and have no internal company experience to draw on.
2. You have ignored me in this forum and therefore cannot read my posts.
3. It is strategically more convenient for you to argue with wonderful, well-crafted rhetoric, such as the following gem. It provides a lot of text, but does not immediately clarify the connections, and the uninformed interested party may be misled by catchy advertising claims.
I have questions about this:
Even I have a significant energy surplus with my unfavorable photovoltaic system without my BEV since installation. The calculation without the car is:
Produced: 8.6 MWh
Consumed: 7.1 MWh
all within the first year after moving in, with some construction moisture.
I am slowly feeling this is rather cheeky.
I see it as positive that this realization is now also emerging with the manufacturer of the heating system. I have outlined this in detail in this post
https://www.hausbau-forum.de/threads/vestaxx-fensterheizung-erfahrungen.41824/post-599311
Here again with the financing options.
https://www.hausbau-forum.de/threads/vestaxx-fensterheizung-erfahrungen.41824/post-599382
One can see that the result is the same, in each case including photovoltaic. Only with the certainty to switch to more efficient water-based heating technology in the future.
My entire contribution is sincere and factual, but has been completely ignored by the provider. As well as the fact that, in the foreseeable future, the product is significantly worse in terms of climate change than a heat pump. Approximately 16-20 tons of CO2 more are generated, compared to the coefficient of performance (COP) of the heat pump. For this reason alone, I could not in good conscience buy or recommend the system.
And once again for clarification: It’s called GRID MIX GRID MIX GRID MIX GRID MIX GRID MIX GRID MIX GRID MIX GRID MIX..... I honestly don’t know how many times I want to repeat this mistake.Alright—then I’ll get back to it and respond here quite factually.
First of all:
You know everything about me—no one knows who OWL is. I am open—you are anonymous. Just for your consideration. I live in OWL—if you want, we could meet for a beer, but then you would have to come out of anonymity.
Business case— I honestly don’t know what our business case here in this forum is supposed to achieve.
Regarding point 1: This is presumptuous and more than wrong. I am highly proficient with our software (I partly developed it myself) and, as managing director, have access to all experience. Soon we will publish software on our website developed together with a Berlin university (HTW). Independent expertise is important for our business. Many people accuse us of sleight of hand, etc.
Regarding point 2: I have not ignored you (I have responded), but I do not have to respond immediately to every single request. You don’t have to either, by the way.
Regarding point 3: An investment and operating cost calculation cannot be made any clearer than in my calculation (Excel or not).
I sincerely congratulate you on your photovoltaic surplus and wish you well; I just don’t see what that has to do with the matter.
Please just tell me what, according to you, is wrong in my calculation above.
“... each including photovoltaic” — please only compare comparable systems. I compared a house with a fixed heating demand, hot water, and household electricity with two heating systems, each costing €40,000. That can be compared, and that is all I’m about.
Your comment about climate change and CO2 emissions is great! But I have already written about this several times, which OWL ignored. Can you tell me how much CO2 the heat pump—including pumps, compressors, valves, housings, and especially the kilometers of heating pipes in the floor—has already produced before it delivered the first kWh? I don’t know, but soon we will commission a thesis on this—because heat pump manufacturers provide no information on this.
We are in the kilogram range for the complete heating technology. I would like to better understand how you calculate the 16-20 tons more compared to the COP for our system.
So—I hope I have answered every point sufficiently and I really mean it: I am open to a discussion with you. I am a very nice guy and not looking for conflict at all. In the discussion, we can also look at my software and examine everything: investment, operating costs, CO2 footprint, grid mix—I would be happy to show you a sample.
Everything is possible—I have nothing to hide.
Finally: Some years ago, I talked with Max Viessmann—upon his request—in Berlin about our system. I had the impression that HE understood me very well. 😉 Not long afterward, Viessmann added infrared heating systems to their range. Why do you think that is?
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