ᐅ Gas Prices – Where Is Gas Still Affordable?

Deliverer schrieb:

Thanks for taking notes. I think what we should clarify a bit more in the discussion is separating the topics of “climate change and what can be done about it” and “the war in Ukraine.”
Just because I want a rapid expansion of renewable energy doesn’t mean I want anyone to have to freeze or suffer until then.
I have also never expressed an opinion on what measures against Putin are appropriate or what the German people should be expected to bear so that the massacre of tens of thousands is punished. THAT is a truly difficult task our politicians currently have to handle.

What I said is: If we hadn’t been so passive, we could have fully sanctioned Putin without having to freeze in the winter. And maybe I hope that will wake someone up so that we do better in the future.

What I didn’t say is that every 88-year-old widow must swap her oil heating system for a heat pump by tomorrow and is obliged to insulate her home. Also, Mr. “I’ve always chopped my own wood” can happily keep heating his yard with wood. But does that mean now everyone must panic because of the war and start replacing gas heating with wood?

With that said, enjoy your meal.

Well, if he can no longer afford gas (and that’s where the whole discussion started here), he needs an alternative.
What we could have done doesn’t help now. We didn’t do it. The situation is what it is. There isn’t enough electricity from renewables at the moment for everyone to heat that way. And so everyone who uses whatever is available right now eases the pressure on the system.
I can understand anyone not caring about climate protection when they don’t know how to keep their home warm. And unfortunately, these issues can’t be separated—they belong together.
Yes, politicians don’t have the easiest job right now. But they chose it. They swore an oath to serve the people in their country. And unfortunately, I see shortcomings there at the moment.

Deliverer schrieb:

And that’s exactly where you need to start, and that’s why I wear out my keycaps like this. And if it gets even one person thinking who then chooses a heat pump instead of pellets, it has helped.

And if many do it NOW, where does the electricity come from NOW?

Deliverer schrieb:

Since you have noticed it yourself by now that you are working with photovoltaics, just a brief note for others: The cheap energy sources are the renewables. The expensive ones, which are the reason for the economic and climate crisis, are the fossil fuels.

In Germany, the rule is: to have 1 kW of renewable electricity, nearly 1 kW from fossil power plants is needed. That’s just how it is. Storage (including pumped hydro) on such a scale does not exist and, aside from PowerPoint presenters (“digitalization,” “demand-oriented operation,” “virtual power plants,” etc.), is not foreseeable. Once again, hardly anyone understands the scale involved. That’s the problem.

So, a gigantic backup power plant fleet must be maintained, which depending on the plant may operate only for a few up to a few thousand hours per year. Out of the 8,760 hours the year has. Since renewables have priority. It doesn’t help if you can produce wind power for 5 cents/kWh. Because behind it there are massive grid connections (most regions in Germany are supplied regionally and the interregional lines exist mainly to balance and reduce the number of reserve kilowatts required).

Secondly, a conventionally fueled power plant of appropriate size must be built and maintained. But it only runs for a few hours, so with a utilization rate in the single-digit percentage range or below. When you amortize the investment in such a plant over the years and divide it by the number of kilowatt-hours produced, obviously you get absurdly high figures! But that is not the “fault” of the conventional power plant; it is simply due to the erratic output of the wind power plant.

Why were 40 new gas power plants planned for the energy transition? Which have now become obsolete since February 24. If solar and wind alone are so great and can generate electricity for a cent each, are the investors stupid? Here’s a hint: due to the few operating hours and the low revenue, these plants wouldn’t have been built anyway because they are simply unprofitable—I heard this firsthand from Uniper. So the energy transition wouldn’t have been successful anyway.

The reason why light switches still work in France and why the German electricity market price remains somewhat reasonable is the small amount of renewables that have managed to develop against all odds.

If those are the renewables, then explain to us why the spread between the EEX futures for July and January of the same year has been widening continuously in recent years? Electricity has always been relatively more expensive in winter due to higher demand, but now that supply (photovoltaics) is also falling, the conventionally fueled power plants—which have become more expensive due to renewables and limited operating hours—have to move from reserve to production and primarily sell their higher-priced electricity. Hence the increasing spread! What renewables may reduce in price during summer is effectively pushed back up because of them during the winter months.

motorradsilke schrieb:

And if many are doing it NOW, where does the electricity come from NOW?

From the reactivated factories producing photovoltaic modules in Germany. There is enough space for this on the large apartment blocks or multifamily houses thanks to the tenant electricity prevention policies of recent years. Okay, there may be a slight shortage of (wo)manpower for installation, but we just have to step in after work under professional supervision and contribute a bit of effort for the common good! I believe there are even enough volunteers for this (maybe the tenants of the apartment blocks who want to get rid of the nightmare of their utility bill?).

Scout** schrieb:

It is what it is.

Yeah, damn. What else can I say now?!

motorradsilke schrieb:

I can understand everyone who doesn’t care about climate protection when they no longer know how to keep the house warm. And these issues cannot be separated; unfortunately, they belong together.

Exactly, freely quoting B. Brecht:
"First comes heating, then comes morality."

motorradsilke schrieb:

And if many do it NOW, where does the electricity come from NOW?

The electricity, of course, comes as always from the socket 🙄

The million-dollar question, however, is: how does the electricity always get into the socket on demand? Delivering electricity for 1 cent/kWh on a windy, cloudless July day is of no use to someone trying to heat their home who, on a relatively windless January night at -5°C (23°F), has to turn on their heat pump – there is no such thing as "supply-oriented." The demand is there then, not in July! And if the electricity must then come from a rarely used lignite power plant (which therefore costs 60 cents/kWh) or if rolling blackouts occur because of that, this only provides limited help to the person trying to heat their home.