Hello everyone,
Please don’t take this thread too seriously – but I’m curious to see where the discussion goes.
I’m about to build a single-family house with 1.5 stories, including private and commercial space, around 150 m² (1,615 sq ft) just for myself.
When the plan started to take shape, it was clear to me – of course Flo is going to do smart home, being tech-savvy, formerly working in IT, and naturally wanting everything connected and automated, because that’s what you need these days.
And it would be silly not to include smart home features in a new build in 2022, whether you actually need them or not.
So I looked into it and especially the costs.
$20,000 plus normal electricity costs (whether KNX or Loxone) are no small expense, so I decided to first see what a smart home really can do and whether I even want it.
Ventilation control – NO (I don’t have ventilation)
Shutter control – NO (I don’t need to control it from anywhere in the world)
Window open/close – NO (window motors alone are too expensive)
Alarm system – NO (I don’t have one)
Door intercom – YES, but this is covered by the intercom provider, and since I’m alone, the app is enough for me.
Weather sensors – NO
Mailbox – YES, that would be cool: like having a display at the entrance and a sensor in the mailbox so you don’t always have to open the door.
Surveillance cameras – YES, but those are covered by the camera provider.
Heat pump / photovoltaics / underfloor heating monitoring and control – YES, that would be nice, but does it justify the cost?
Switchable sockets – YES, that would actually be the first thing I really want.
Lighting control – NO for scenes. YES for motion detectors and different brightness levels for day and night.
So I came to the conclusion: no real smart home, I’ll wire everything conventionally.
Hallway, bathroom, utility room, guest toilet, pantry will have motion sensors, but without adjusted lighting levels – that’s about all I can do.
Now, feel free to share your thoughts. As I said, I’ve more or less given up on the topic.
But if anyone has an intermediate solution, I would still appreciate hearing about it.
Best regards
Flo
Please don’t take this thread too seriously – but I’m curious to see where the discussion goes.
I’m about to build a single-family house with 1.5 stories, including private and commercial space, around 150 m² (1,615 sq ft) just for myself.
When the plan started to take shape, it was clear to me – of course Flo is going to do smart home, being tech-savvy, formerly working in IT, and naturally wanting everything connected and automated, because that’s what you need these days.
And it would be silly not to include smart home features in a new build in 2022, whether you actually need them or not.
So I looked into it and especially the costs.
$20,000 plus normal electricity costs (whether KNX or Loxone) are no small expense, so I decided to first see what a smart home really can do and whether I even want it.
Ventilation control – NO (I don’t have ventilation)
Shutter control – NO (I don’t need to control it from anywhere in the world)
Window open/close – NO (window motors alone are too expensive)
Alarm system – NO (I don’t have one)
Door intercom – YES, but this is covered by the intercom provider, and since I’m alone, the app is enough for me.
Weather sensors – NO
Mailbox – YES, that would be cool: like having a display at the entrance and a sensor in the mailbox so you don’t always have to open the door.
Surveillance cameras – YES, but those are covered by the camera provider.
Heat pump / photovoltaics / underfloor heating monitoring and control – YES, that would be nice, but does it justify the cost?
Switchable sockets – YES, that would actually be the first thing I really want.
Lighting control – NO for scenes. YES for motion detectors and different brightness levels for day and night.
So I came to the conclusion: no real smart home, I’ll wire everything conventionally.
Hallway, bathroom, utility room, guest toilet, pantry will have motion sensors, but without adjusted lighting levels – that’s about all I can do.
Now, feel free to share your thoughts. As I said, I’ve more or less given up on the topic.
But if anyone has an intermediate solution, I would still appreciate hearing about it.
Best regards
Flo
Yes, and that is exactly where the problem lies. With "standard electrical work," there is almost nothing involved. If you want a structured cabling system for a future-proof smart home, things are different.
For that reason, you need to sit down beforehand. Develop a concept. Create a room schedule. Design a wiring plan. Draw up a distribution board plan. Prepare a specification sheet, and so on.
Then you will realize that with "standard electrical work," there is hardly anything to be done. Which inevitably means that this item will have a relatively low cost. But there will be a large portion of structured cabling. However, this does not represent an additional cost, but rather replaces the usual electrical installation.
This means, as I mentioned at the beginning, you don’t end up with 20K plus conventional wiring but 20K instead of conventional wiring. Of course, with a variable +Y. Because as the saying goes, your appetite comes with eating, and most people want more once they find out what is actually possible.
But yes, I understand what you mean. You want to do the flush-mounted installation yourself. The fact is, conventional wiring can basically be done quickly—walking through the rooms with the electrician and marking a few lines and circles on the walls. With structured cabling, more preliminary work is needed. Certainly, fewer outlets have to be installed, and sub-distribution boards are a thing of the past in a "normal" single-family house. But more cables are installed, both 230V and SELV circuits, and you can expect the size of the distribution board to be 2 to 3 times larger (sometimes even 5 times).
For that reason, you need to sit down beforehand. Develop a concept. Create a room schedule. Design a wiring plan. Draw up a distribution board plan. Prepare a specification sheet, and so on.
Then you will realize that with "standard electrical work," there is hardly anything to be done. Which inevitably means that this item will have a relatively low cost. But there will be a large portion of structured cabling. However, this does not represent an additional cost, but rather replaces the usual electrical installation.
This means, as I mentioned at the beginning, you don’t end up with 20K plus conventional wiring but 20K instead of conventional wiring. Of course, with a variable +Y. Because as the saying goes, your appetite comes with eating, and most people want more once they find out what is actually possible.
But yes, I understand what you mean. You want to do the flush-mounted installation yourself. The fact is, conventional wiring can basically be done quickly—walking through the rooms with the electrician and marking a few lines and circles on the walls. With structured cabling, more preliminary work is needed. Certainly, fewer outlets have to be installed, and sub-distribution boards are a thing of the past in a "normal" single-family house. But more cables are installed, both 230V and SELV circuits, and you can expect the size of the distribution board to be 2 to 3 times larger (sometimes even 5 times).
i_b_n_a_n schrieb:
@Mycraft already mentioned it: IT specialists are biased. But why KNX and Loxone, which are established systems, are always chosen for comparison with traditional electrical installations and smart home setups instead of a nice open-source system (OpenHAB ...) is beyond me.
The wiring for all smart home systems is similar; a bus system requires somewhat fewer cables than the pure star topology wiring we have, but never mind. After about 4 months living in our mostly self-built, electrified, and partially automated smart home, I can only say: OpenHAB works great. Slowly, some extra features are being added (various sensors with long-term logging options, small programs like adjusting slats on Venetian blinds to, for example, 90°. Naturally, based on blind position—timing when fully up or down ;-) and much more). Especially as an IT person, I recommend: Do it yourself. Wiring is easy; programming is initially moderately difficult but gets easier over time. Above all, you understand how everything works and don’t have to call a system integrator whenever you want to add, change, or replace something. Of course, bus switches (KNX/Loxone components) can also be integrated, but they are not mandatory. I just wanted to bring this option into the discussion, not start a religious war :p I agree with you 110%. Everyone complains about the exorbitant prices for KNX and similar systems instead of just looking around.
There are plenty of cheaper alternatives that, in my opinion, are also much more flexible.
We have been running IOBroker on a Raspberry Pi for years. Our wiring is star topology, with simple EIB cable running to standard Gira 55 light switches and push buttons (no complaints from the wife ;-) ). These directly control relays for lighting and shutters. These relays send and receive signals via MQTT to and from IOBroker (or OpenHAB). If the server is unplugged because someone needs the Raspberry’s power outlet for the vacuum cleaner, the lights can still be switched on and off. So, the basic functions always work without the server.
Additional push buttons (or a second button) are reported to IOBroker via a Modbus digital input converter. These are lamps that do not necessarily have to be controlled by exactly that button, for example switching off the kitchen light from the living room button.
One lamp shows me, by color, whether and which waste bin needs to be taken out. The data is stored in a Google Calendar, and the cost for this setup was a Zigbee LED bulb (I think it was around €15) and a Zigbee dongle (starting from €9). I was curious if this would work with KNX as well. When I saw that the Google Calendar plugin alone costs around €80, I stopped looking further.
Programming, as i_b_n_a_n already said, is really child’s play with the well-known open-source systems after a short while. You are very flexible about what, when, and where to switch, and as i_b_n_a_n mentioned, you can do it yourself without needing a system integrator.
Best regards
Hannes
P.S. Just as an example, the Modbus DI module with 32 inputs for light switches / push buttons costs about €22. You need the light switches anyway, and the EIB cable is cheaper than NYM cable.
A
akanezumi12 Feb 2022 19:36If you choose a "smart home," my recommendation is to do it properly from the start. As Mycraft already mentioned, there’s little left of conventional electrical installations.
For me, "doing it properly" means relying on an established standard like KNX, rather than being locked into a single manufacturer’s system or using a DIY solution.
With systems like Loxone, Free@Home, and similar, you are more or less dependent on the manufacturer. If they discontinue devices or the entire system, getting support becomes difficult.
DIY solutions can certainly work well, but only the original builder can maintain them. The house might eventually be sold or the builder could be in the hospital for an extended period (or worse). In these situations, the rest of the family usually can’t do much if problems arise. Often, such DIY solutions may also reduce the property’s value when selling.
Besides, a KNX-based system can be easily expanded with tools like ioBroker or OpenHAB. However, I would always implement the core functionality through standard KNX.
For me, "doing it properly" means relying on an established standard like KNX, rather than being locked into a single manufacturer’s system or using a DIY solution.
With systems like Loxone, Free@Home, and similar, you are more or less dependent on the manufacturer. If they discontinue devices or the entire system, getting support becomes difficult.
DIY solutions can certainly work well, but only the original builder can maintain them. The house might eventually be sold or the builder could be in the hospital for an extended period (or worse). In these situations, the rest of the family usually can’t do much if problems arise. Often, such DIY solutions may also reduce the property’s value when selling.
Besides, a KNX-based system can be easily expanded with tools like ioBroker or OpenHAB. However, I would always implement the core functionality through standard KNX.
He wants to control a few power outlets, monitor the mailbox, and switch the lights. For the price of a KNX installation, he could also hire someone to occasionally check if the mail has arrived 😉
I wouldn’t exactly call systems like Modbus a "DIY solution" since this is the most widespread industrial standard worldwide in this field, and the devices are correspondingly mature and affordable. This standard has existed since 1978 (KNX was [...]). Data from photovoltaic systems, charging stations, etc., can usually be accessed via a Modbus interface. Of course, you can install an (expensive) KNX interface to get this data.
For the three things the original poster wants, I would choose a Siemens Logo 8 with a Modbus interface. It is reasonably priced and should be future-proof.
- The Logo handles the control of lights and power outlets, as well as the main control
- Connection of the heat pump and photovoltaic system, and possibly the car charging station in a few years via Modbus
- Underfloor heating and presence detection either via Logo or Modbus
Personally, I would also distribute some inexpensive temperature and humidity sensors (Modbus or Siemens Logo) inside and outside the house and, as an absolute must-have, install electrically operated roller shutters that keep out the heat in summer, controlled by a light sensor and temperature sensors. You can of course combine this with presence detectors to avoid sitting in the dark.
On top of that, you can then use Openhab, IOBroker, or similar. Since you saved money by not using the expensive KNX components, you can implement all the nice features possible today. As most of us have noticed, there are countless such features, and you keep coming up with new ideas 🙂
I wouldn’t exactly call systems like Modbus a "DIY solution" since this is the most widespread industrial standard worldwide in this field, and the devices are correspondingly mature and affordable. This standard has existed since 1978 (KNX was [...]). Data from photovoltaic systems, charging stations, etc., can usually be accessed via a Modbus interface. Of course, you can install an (expensive) KNX interface to get this data.
For the three things the original poster wants, I would choose a Siemens Logo 8 with a Modbus interface. It is reasonably priced and should be future-proof.
- The Logo handles the control of lights and power outlets, as well as the main control
- Connection of the heat pump and photovoltaic system, and possibly the car charging station in a few years via Modbus
- Underfloor heating and presence detection either via Logo or Modbus
Personally, I would also distribute some inexpensive temperature and humidity sensors (Modbus or Siemens Logo) inside and outside the house and, as an absolute must-have, install electrically operated roller shutters that keep out the heat in summer, controlled by a light sensor and temperature sensors. You can of course combine this with presence detectors to avoid sitting in the dark.
On top of that, you can then use Openhab, IOBroker, or similar. Since you saved money by not using the expensive KNX components, you can implement all the nice features possible today. As most of us have noticed, there are countless such features, and you keep coming up with new ideas 🙂
akanezumi schrieb:
...
“Doing it right” means to me also relying on an established standard (KNX) and not being locked into a single manufacturer’s system or using a DIY solution.
With systems like Loxone, Free@Home, and others, you are more or less dependent on the manufacturer. If they discontinue devices or the entire system, support becomes difficult.
DIY solutions certainly can work well, but only the creator can maintain them. The house might be sold someday, or the builder may be hospitalized for an extended time (or worse). Then the rest of the family can do little in case of errors. Often, such DIY solutions also reduce the property’s value when selling.
Apart from that, a KNX-based system can also be easily expanded with tools like ioBroker or OpenHAB. But the core functionality should always be implemented via standard KNX.We are using "Controllinos" and "Smartmanager," both of which are not DIY solutions but industrially produced Arduinos and Raspberry Pis. If you look closely at what Raspberry Pis control in industry, nobody doubts anymore that a Raspberry Pi can also manage a single-family house (and is actually just bored most of the time ;-)).We maintain thorough documentation along with appropriate hardware labelling so that “knowledgeable third parties” can always continue, adjust, or modify the system. If necessary, just remove the Controllinos and control the relays (industrial relays ;-) ) directly, as described by @Hannes S.
The Controllino “firmware” is saved separately on a server for each dwelling unit so that replacements can be quickly restored. The Raspberry Pi with OpenHAB and ioBroker is programmed in a universal way with many variables, allowing it to be used in all four dwelling units (with one held as backup) by simply adjusting the IP address. This takes only a few minutes. Incidentally, we are currently considering moving the logic of the Raspberry Pi (OpenHAB and ioBroker) to the cloud (future “fog” computing).
For example, 1-wire temperature sensors cost around 1.xx € (I think 5 pieces for 6€). The 1-wire humidity+temperature sensor combo is about 6€ net. Wiring is done directly to the Controllinos (as are all standard Gira 55 push-buttons). The logic with long-term logging is handled by the Raspberry Pi (soon with cloud backup).
akanezumi schrieb:
If you choose a smart home, my recommendation is to do it properly from the start. As Mycraft mentioned, there’s not much left of regular electrical installations.
“Doing it properly” means, for me, relying on an established standard (KNX) instead of being locked into a single manufacturer’s system or using a DIY patchwork solution.
With systems like Loxone, Free@Home, and others, you are more or less dependent on the manufacturer. If they discontinue devices or the entire system, support becomes difficult.
DIY solutions may work well but can only be maintained by the original builder. The house might be sold someday, or the builder might be hospitalized for a long time (or worse). Then the rest of the family can do little to fix issues. Often, such DIY setups also reduce the home’s resale value.
Besides that, KNX-based systems can easily be expanded with tools like ioBroker or OpenHAB. However, I would always implement the basic functionality through standard KNX. The resale value of a house is certainly not reduced by having an OpenHAB installation. The wiring allows for switching to KNX or a similar system at any time. What’s important is the existing infrastructure (star or bus wiring). It is more likely to be difficult to sell a property if fast internet is not available or if the wiring is “conventional.” Although these days, even difficult-to-sell properties are hard to get rid of :p