Hello everyone,
Please don’t take this thread too seriously – but I’m curious to see where the discussion goes.
I’m about to build a single-family house with 1.5 stories, including private and commercial space, around 150 m² (1,615 sq ft) just for myself.
When the plan started to take shape, it was clear to me – of course Flo is going to do smart home, being tech-savvy, formerly working in IT, and naturally wanting everything connected and automated, because that’s what you need these days.
And it would be silly not to include smart home features in a new build in 2022, whether you actually need them or not.
So I looked into it and especially the costs.
$20,000 plus normal electricity costs (whether KNX or Loxone) are no small expense, so I decided to first see what a smart home really can do and whether I even want it.
Ventilation control – NO (I don’t have ventilation)
Shutter control – NO (I don’t need to control it from anywhere in the world)
Window open/close – NO (window motors alone are too expensive)
Alarm system – NO (I don’t have one)
Door intercom – YES, but this is covered by the intercom provider, and since I’m alone, the app is enough for me.
Weather sensors – NO
Mailbox – YES, that would be cool: like having a display at the entrance and a sensor in the mailbox so you don’t always have to open the door.
Surveillance cameras – YES, but those are covered by the camera provider.
Heat pump / photovoltaics / underfloor heating monitoring and control – YES, that would be nice, but does it justify the cost?
Switchable sockets – YES, that would actually be the first thing I really want.
Lighting control – NO for scenes. YES for motion detectors and different brightness levels for day and night.
So I came to the conclusion: no real smart home, I’ll wire everything conventionally.
Hallway, bathroom, utility room, guest toilet, pantry will have motion sensors, but without adjusted lighting levels – that’s about all I can do.
Now, feel free to share your thoughts. As I said, I’ve more or less given up on the topic.
But if anyone has an intermediate solution, I would still appreciate hearing about it.
Best regards
Flo
Please don’t take this thread too seriously – but I’m curious to see where the discussion goes.
I’m about to build a single-family house with 1.5 stories, including private and commercial space, around 150 m² (1,615 sq ft) just for myself.
When the plan started to take shape, it was clear to me – of course Flo is going to do smart home, being tech-savvy, formerly working in IT, and naturally wanting everything connected and automated, because that’s what you need these days.
And it would be silly not to include smart home features in a new build in 2022, whether you actually need them or not.
So I looked into it and especially the costs.
$20,000 plus normal electricity costs (whether KNX or Loxone) are no small expense, so I decided to first see what a smart home really can do and whether I even want it.
Ventilation control – NO (I don’t have ventilation)
Shutter control – NO (I don’t need to control it from anywhere in the world)
Window open/close – NO (window motors alone are too expensive)
Alarm system – NO (I don’t have one)
Door intercom – YES, but this is covered by the intercom provider, and since I’m alone, the app is enough for me.
Weather sensors – NO
Mailbox – YES, that would be cool: like having a display at the entrance and a sensor in the mailbox so you don’t always have to open the door.
Surveillance cameras – YES, but those are covered by the camera provider.
Heat pump / photovoltaics / underfloor heating monitoring and control – YES, that would be nice, but does it justify the cost?
Switchable sockets – YES, that would actually be the first thing I really want.
Lighting control – NO for scenes. YES for motion detectors and different brightness levels for day and night.
So I came to the conclusion: no real smart home, I’ll wire everything conventionally.
Hallway, bathroom, utility room, guest toilet, pantry will have motion sensors, but without adjusted lighting levels – that’s about all I can do.
Now, feel free to share your thoughts. As I said, I’ve more or less given up on the topic.
But if anyone has an intermediate solution, I would still appreciate hearing about it.
Best regards
Flo
Tarnari schrieb:
Why would I want to control my shutters from the outside myself?
I’m not even there when I’m outside…
*scratches head* Exactly, if I’m not home (and don’t have a sensor), I have to tell the window to close.
But this feature doesn’t really matter anyway – because it’s too expensive.
What do you want to hear?
It’s not really surprising that someone doesn’t think a smartphone is worth the extra cost when they even find electric roller shutters too expensive and prefer to operate them manually instead... 😉
And I mean this completely neutrally! It’s all good if you’re satisfied. For example, I’m very happy with the automated lighting and especially the roller shutter control including shading and wind alarm. However, I’m sure I would be satisfied without it too, although in that case I wouldn’t really know what having a smart home is like.
I see it pragmatically: you have to be willing to afford it in order to justify it for yourself. That’s true for any investment. If someone says it’s rubbish and they don’t need it, that’s fine by me too. 😉
It’s not really surprising that someone doesn’t think a smartphone is worth the extra cost when they even find electric roller shutters too expensive and prefer to operate them manually instead... 😉
And I mean this completely neutrally! It’s all good if you’re satisfied. For example, I’m very happy with the automated lighting and especially the roller shutter control including shading and wind alarm. However, I’m sure I would be satisfied without it too, although in that case I wouldn’t really know what having a smart home is like.
I see it pragmatically: you have to be willing to afford it in order to justify it for yourself. That’s true for any investment. If someone says it’s rubbish and they don’t need it, that’s fine by me too. 😉
nullhorn schrieb:
Exactly, if I'm not at home (and don’t have a sensor), then I have to tell the window to close.
But this function doesn’t really matter anyway – because it’s too expensive. I don’t understand that…
IT specialists are usually quite biased on this topic.
Mistake number one... why $20K plus normal electricity? Why would anyone take on double the costs? Or were they simply poorly advised here? It should be $20K instead of conventional wiring, which usually accounts for a large part of that $20K.
That’s obviously unrelated at first and is mistake number two... the general misconception about smart homes is that you equip houses with automation mainly so you can control them from anywhere in the world. Whether it’s the roller shutters or other features. But that’s not what a smart home is about at all. That remote control is just a bonus or an incidental feature that can be turned off completely if desired. Often physically, so no external access to the system is possible.
Having a collection of apps on your phone or tablet for each subsystem is far from what a real smart home means.
Yes, that’s quite useful. Implementation? Two binary inputs and contacts—that’s simple, especially if you already have a finished system. Such functions come naturally because you think of them and can implement them quickly and easily. The house understands when you tell it: here are contacts -> when closed (or open, or sequences of actions, depending) = mail. This isn’t so easy or quick with conventional wiring. Of course, you can build something with Arduino or the like, but that’s kind of a youth science project for simple mail detection.
Yes, they are useful because you can save switches/buttons but still have full control and run scenarios (watching TV, sleeping, away mode, dinner time, etc.) and also switch everything off and disconnect power (except devices that require continuous power like refrigerators, OLED screens, etc.) after leaving the house or going to bed.
Exactly, different lighting moods and scenarios up to a simple alarm system are possible with presence detectors at no extra cost. You just need these presence detectors and some creativity; the rest you do on the computer. Provided you have something to control, which you do if you’re talking about different lighting scenarios for day/night/evening, and so on.
That’s your decision, and if that’s what you want, I’m sure you’ll still love your house. However, motion detectors are really the less sophisticated cousin of presence detectors. Sure, better than nothing, but I personally find the limited settings, the poor detection, and of course the relay noises annoying. But that’s just my opinion.
Sure, that’s possible, but it usually involves many compromises. A bit here and a bit there usually isn’t effective. It’s like buying a Fiat and trying to turn it into an Audi. Why not buy an Audi right away, or at least a Volkswagen. (Brand names randomly chosen.)
Of course not, that’s nonsense. Because then you’re still trapped in the cage of conventional wiring.
That’s very far from a smart home. Although the term itself is misleading. Nowadays, anything that involves less user interaction is often called smart. In the past, these were just remote-controlled sockets; now, once something is remotely controllable, it is suddenly called a smart home. But truly smart means it works automatically without intervention by the occupant.
In a smart home, such simple features usually come at almost no extra cost. Most of it is already included.
It’s like a modern phone. When you buy it, you can not only make calls but also send messages, schedule appointments, and much more. A rotary phone, by comparison, is the equivalent of conventional wiring with switches on the wall.
nullhorn schrieb:
So, I looked into it and especially examined the costs.
$20,000 plus normal electricity (whether KNX or Loxone) is not cheap,
Mistake number one... why $20K plus normal electricity? Why would anyone take on double the costs? Or were they simply poorly advised here? It should be $20K instead of conventional wiring, which usually accounts for a large part of that $20K.
nullhorn schrieb:
Roller shutter control – NO (I don’t need to control that from anywhere in the world)
That’s obviously unrelated at first and is mistake number two... the general misconception about smart homes is that you equip houses with automation mainly so you can control them from anywhere in the world. Whether it’s the roller shutters or other features. But that’s not what a smart home is about at all. That remote control is just a bonus or an incidental feature that can be turned off completely if desired. Often physically, so no external access to the system is possible.
nullhorn schrieb:
Door intercom – YES, but that's covered by the intercom provider, and since I live alone, the app alone is enough for me.
Security cameras – YES, but that’s covered by the camera provider.
Having a collection of apps on your phone or tablet for each subsystem is far from what a real smart home means.
nullhorn schrieb:
Mailbox – YES, that would be cool if you have a display near the entrance and a sensor in the mailbox, so you don’t have to unlock the door every time.
Yes, that’s quite useful. Implementation? Two binary inputs and contacts—that’s simple, especially if you already have a finished system. Such functions come naturally because you think of them and can implement them quickly and easily. The house understands when you tell it: here are contacts -> when closed (or open, or sequences of actions, depending) = mail. This isn’t so easy or quick with conventional wiring. Of course, you can build something with Arduino or the like, but that’s kind of a youth science project for simple mail detection.
nullhorn schrieb:
Switchable sockets – YES, that’s the first thing I would really like to have.
Yes, they are useful because you can save switches/buttons but still have full control and run scenarios (watching TV, sleeping, away mode, dinner time, etc.) and also switch everything off and disconnect power (except devices that require continuous power like refrigerators, OLED screens, etc.) after leaving the house or going to bed.
nullhorn schrieb:
YES to presence detectors and different brightness levels for day and night.
Exactly, different lighting moods and scenarios up to a simple alarm system are possible with presence detectors at no extra cost. You just need these presence detectors and some creativity; the rest you do on the computer. Provided you have something to control, which you do if you’re talking about different lighting scenarios for day/night/evening, and so on.
nullhorn schrieb:
So I came to the conclusion there is no smart home after all and I will just wire everything conventionally.
In the hallway, bathroom, utility room, guest toilet, pantry I will install motion detectors, but they don’t adjust the brightness – I can’t do more.
That’s your decision, and if that’s what you want, I’m sure you’ll still love your house. However, motion detectors are really the less sophisticated cousin of presence detectors. Sure, better than nothing, but I personally find the limited settings, the poor detection, and of course the relay noises annoying. But that’s just my opinion.
nullhorn schrieb:
“Presence detectors for lighting control plus time-dependent lighting control can also be managed independently, so that would already be something.
Sure, that’s possible, but it usually involves many compromises. A bit here and a bit there usually isn’t effective. It’s like buying a Fiat and trying to turn it into an Audi. Why not buy an Audi right away, or at least a Volkswagen. (Brand names randomly chosen.)
nullhorn schrieb:
EDIT: And just installing a control cable in every room is pointless,
because then you’d have to break into the room from there to lay it to an actuator.
Of course not, that’s nonsense. Because then you’re still trapped in the cage of conventional wiring.
nullhorn schrieb:
Exactly, if I’m not at home (and have no sensor) I have to tell the window to close.
That’s very far from a smart home. Although the term itself is misleading. Nowadays, anything that involves less user interaction is often called smart. In the past, these were just remote-controlled sockets; now, once something is remotely controllable, it is suddenly called a smart home. But truly smart means it works automatically without intervention by the occupant.
nullhorn schrieb:
This feature is irrelevant anyway – because it’s too expensive.
In a smart home, such simple features usually come at almost no extra cost. Most of it is already included.
It’s like a modern phone. When you buy it, you can not only make calls but also send messages, schedule appointments, and much more. A rotary phone, by comparison, is the equivalent of conventional wiring with switches on the wall.
nullhorn schrieb:
What do you mean by that? A “yes” to smart home or a “yes” to no smart home? My “yes” to your “no” 🙂 Although you definitely need to differentiate here.
Linking photovoltaic systems to heat pumps, and possibly batteries and electric cars, makes sense and is therefore standard with most providers. It’s just one click during setup, completely transparent, easily adjustable, and works flawlessly—even without any additional measures.
Shading can make sense to prevent overheating. Who wants to adjust settings in every room depending on sun intensity and position? Of course, that also depends on the architecture and the site: if the house doesn’t overheat in the first place or you don’t mind being visible to curious neighbors, you can do without it. We have such automation for our external blinds but haven’t even put it into operation yet because we haven’t missed it so far. Still, it’s something I’d at least consider in advance. This can also be done with a wireless solution, even as a retrofit.
Switchable sockets are nice but not very important to me, and I don’t find it burdensome to press a button now and then. In our case, that also applies to motion or occupancy sensors. In small rooms like the WC, pantry, or utility room, I simply press a light switch when entering...
If you have a technical interest and enjoy it, of course you can see it differently and delve into the topic. If not, you quickly end up with high effort (money and time) for little benefit.
I have now requested three quotes from local KNX and Loxone providers and I am waiting to receive them. We will do the electrical work ourselves, but we only have "regular" or older electricians (no judgment intended). What I mean to say is that maybe we can handle part of the smart home installation ourselves within the electrical work (for example, the cabling), and if the additional cost at the end seems acceptable to me, it would change the whole situation again. I’d say if it costs around $5,000 more than “standard” electrical work, I’ll go for it; if it’s $10,000 more, I’ll have to think about it; but I’m not willing to pay an extra $20,000 on top.
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