First of all, I want to clarify that my goal is not to save the world (sorry, my bad), but solely to reduce heating costs! I have been calculating back and forth for some time now but unfortunately can’t come to an optimal conclusion.
So here’s my attempt to use collective intelligence. Perhaps someone has already considered the same issues.
My house (old, 25cm (10 inches) Ytong blocks) could be improved in terms of U-value by adding a brick-style polystyrene cladding, or I could install a heat pump. Currently, I am heating with oil but could switch to gas. Oil heating still has a certain grandfathering protection for a while, but it’s likely that I will face problems with oil in the future.
Switching to gas would cost me about $8,000, the heat pump around $15,000. The polystyrene (or similar) cladding would indeed lower heating costs, but when I asked for information, no one could really tell me by what percentage my costs would drop if I improved the U-value (currently 0.35 for 25cm (10 inches) Ytong) by a factor X through additional insulation.
Are there tables or simple rough calculations that could help me decide without having to take another university-level math course first?
Thanks in advance for any information from someone who, like me, does not want to wait for the climate transition that will supposedly bring us winter temperatures of +15°C (59°F). 😉
So here’s my attempt to use collective intelligence. Perhaps someone has already considered the same issues.
My house (old, 25cm (10 inches) Ytong blocks) could be improved in terms of U-value by adding a brick-style polystyrene cladding, or I could install a heat pump. Currently, I am heating with oil but could switch to gas. Oil heating still has a certain grandfathering protection for a while, but it’s likely that I will face problems with oil in the future.
Switching to gas would cost me about $8,000, the heat pump around $15,000. The polystyrene (or similar) cladding would indeed lower heating costs, but when I asked for information, no one could really tell me by what percentage my costs would drop if I improved the U-value (currently 0.35 for 25cm (10 inches) Ytong) by a factor X through additional insulation.
Are there tables or simple rough calculations that could help me decide without having to take another university-level math course first?
Thanks in advance for any information from someone who, like me, does not want to wait for the climate transition that will supposedly bring us winter temperatures of +15°C (59°F). 😉
I actually took in all the “noise” here and support the idea that the original poster should retreat again. 😀
If you only know cold walls and floors, insulation naturally seems pointless. (It just costs money and you’ll never “get that heat back” again.)
Comfort is the key word (magic word).
PS: I wouldn’t want to live in my parents’ 1963 house anymore, even though I lived well and even survived there for the first 25 years.
If you only know cold walls and floors, insulation naturally seems pointless. (It just costs money and you’ll never “get that heat back” again.)
Comfort is the key word (magic word).
PS: I wouldn’t want to live in my parents’ 1963 house anymore, even though I lived well and even survived there for the first 25 years.
P
pagoni20203 Dec 2021 08:39Höhlenmensch schrieb:
Greetings from the skeptic Reading this makes me feel dizzy and gives me the impression that everything is somehow falling apart.
When faced with such negativity, I always think of Paul Watzlawick’s "The Instructions for Unhappiness."
Of course, there are fraudsters, charlatans, poor workmanship, scams, and critical thinking is definitely necessary when building a house. However, general distrust of everything usually doesn’t help anywhere in life.
By the way, I regularly use Stiftung Warentest as a benchmark and have done so for many years. But I believe they would not want to be quoted so broadly, and such a citation certainly doesn’t reflect the essence of their message; I am used to very nuanced assessments from them.
H
hampshire3 Dec 2021 08:48Höhlenmensch schrieb:
Greetings from the skepticI hope you are doing well despite what seems to be an unfriendly or even hostile living situation in Germany. It reminded me of the Italian poet Giacomo Leopardi, who wrote:"Nothing lives that would be worthy
Of your emotions, and the earth deserves no sigh.
Pain and boredom are our existence, and the world is dung—nothing else.
Calm yourself."
Höhlenmensch3 Dec 2021 22:22Thanks for the clarification. I’m not very familiar with Italian poets and philologists, but as someone who’s always learning, I looked it up and now understand the intended meaning. 😉
You only need to calm down if you’re upset!
Generally, commenting off-topic is pointless, but I still notice that many here stubbornly stick to their own opinions without recognizing the contradictions.
For example—those who can read are better off: I wrote that my “sensor” is installed on the north side. The sun shone all day from the south side and heated up the room nicely due to the large window wall (4m (13 feet) wide and 2.40m (7 feet 10 inches) high) plus other windows. The sensor—north side, shaded, cold—caused the control system to heat too much, so I had 25°C (77°F) inside in the evening. I’ve encountered this problem several times, which is why I manually adjust it (since the cheap 25cm (10 inches) Ytong blocks apparently do offer some insulation). The control system isn’t the newest, but if you want to upgrade to something new, you don’t start by replacing individual parts. (And since I spend a lot of time in my “warm” basement anyway, accessing the electronics isn’t a big deal.)
When comparing prices, I based it on standard offers—not the special promotions posted here, some of which are up to 50% below the usual prices. You can argue about products from China, but luckily I’ve always had good experiences so far. And anyone who thinks their “German” products contain no foreign “junk” should open them and take a look.
I didn’t intend to discuss the physical basics here, but it’s always interesting to read when people accuse others of ignorance and then suggest electrically heating the basement with infrared or space heaters as a solution. 🙄 (great solution)
Perhaps I’m lucky, but my setup has been working great over a long time, and the fact that my basement is “comfortably warm” despite the poor insulation in the basement ceiling makes me happy every day. (By the way, the basement walls are 36cm (14 inches) Ytong, probably due to structural reasons related to earth pressure.)
Looking at the overall balance (living area versus heating oil costs), I realize that even if I pay around 200 euros more per year for oil than for electricity for a heat pump, I’ve only spent 2,000 euros over 10 years. (Let’s hope oil prices don’t explode.) I weigh this against the conversion costs, considering only an air-source heat pump. Everyone who’s informed knows what it actually ends up costing. Since geothermal energy is optional, I’ve already obtained quotes and found that the recommended 50m (164 feet) borehole, for example, would cost an additional 8,000 euros. OK, I have to pay that now—the payback period is quite a while away.
For me, it’s a matter of transition; if someone is building new, they have no choice but to go this route, and often the financing covers these costs.
That said, one shouldn’t stubbornly sugarcoat their situation but remain critical.
Regarding the accusations of “social/political criticism” directed at me, I can only say that I wish all builders never to become unemployed. When I compare today’s prices, partly driven up by absurd regulations, with those from the past, I wonder why many accept this so casually. Even if you can’t change anything at the moment, criticism should be allowed.
There are still people who don’t rely on paybacks far in the future but pay in cash and sleep peacefully.
The original question was actually quite different and showed that despite my skepticism, I am interested in updating my nickname (Fred Feuerstein, the Höhlenmensch).
That’s it for now…
When I have more precise details, I’ll gladly post them in a new thread, which should be more helpful to readers than just glorifying the brave new world of super technology—which also needs to be paid for.
Until then, greetings to all electric car drivers who will notice in winter how their range drops when the heater runs longer.
Not related to the topic, but I had to get it off my chest.
Sorry 😉
You only need to calm down if you’re upset!
Generally, commenting off-topic is pointless, but I still notice that many here stubbornly stick to their own opinions without recognizing the contradictions.
For example—those who can read are better off: I wrote that my “sensor” is installed on the north side. The sun shone all day from the south side and heated up the room nicely due to the large window wall (4m (13 feet) wide and 2.40m (7 feet 10 inches) high) plus other windows. The sensor—north side, shaded, cold—caused the control system to heat too much, so I had 25°C (77°F) inside in the evening. I’ve encountered this problem several times, which is why I manually adjust it (since the cheap 25cm (10 inches) Ytong blocks apparently do offer some insulation). The control system isn’t the newest, but if you want to upgrade to something new, you don’t start by replacing individual parts. (And since I spend a lot of time in my “warm” basement anyway, accessing the electronics isn’t a big deal.)
When comparing prices, I based it on standard offers—not the special promotions posted here, some of which are up to 50% below the usual prices. You can argue about products from China, but luckily I’ve always had good experiences so far. And anyone who thinks their “German” products contain no foreign “junk” should open them and take a look.
I didn’t intend to discuss the physical basics here, but it’s always interesting to read when people accuse others of ignorance and then suggest electrically heating the basement with infrared or space heaters as a solution. 🙄 (great solution)
Perhaps I’m lucky, but my setup has been working great over a long time, and the fact that my basement is “comfortably warm” despite the poor insulation in the basement ceiling makes me happy every day. (By the way, the basement walls are 36cm (14 inches) Ytong, probably due to structural reasons related to earth pressure.)
Looking at the overall balance (living area versus heating oil costs), I realize that even if I pay around 200 euros more per year for oil than for electricity for a heat pump, I’ve only spent 2,000 euros over 10 years. (Let’s hope oil prices don’t explode.) I weigh this against the conversion costs, considering only an air-source heat pump. Everyone who’s informed knows what it actually ends up costing. Since geothermal energy is optional, I’ve already obtained quotes and found that the recommended 50m (164 feet) borehole, for example, would cost an additional 8,000 euros. OK, I have to pay that now—the payback period is quite a while away.
For me, it’s a matter of transition; if someone is building new, they have no choice but to go this route, and often the financing covers these costs.
That said, one shouldn’t stubbornly sugarcoat their situation but remain critical.
Regarding the accusations of “social/political criticism” directed at me, I can only say that I wish all builders never to become unemployed. When I compare today’s prices, partly driven up by absurd regulations, with those from the past, I wonder why many accept this so casually. Even if you can’t change anything at the moment, criticism should be allowed.
There are still people who don’t rely on paybacks far in the future but pay in cash and sleep peacefully.
The original question was actually quite different and showed that despite my skepticism, I am interested in updating my nickname (Fred Feuerstein, the Höhlenmensch).
That’s it for now…
When I have more precise details, I’ll gladly post them in a new thread, which should be more helpful to readers than just glorifying the brave new world of super technology—which also needs to be paid for.
Until then, greetings to all electric car drivers who will notice in winter how their range drops when the heater runs longer.
Not related to the topic, but I had to get it off my chest.
Sorry 😉
Well, opinion aside.
You’ve already identified the key point: adding external wall insulation to your house won’t pay off purely from an energy savings perspective within your lifetime.
However, if you are planning to renovate the facade anyway or actually want to switch to a heat pump, insulation becomes necessary.
With an annual oil consumption of 2000 liters (530 gallons), I would personally not do anything as long as the heating system is working and you are comfortable with the indoor temperature.
If at some point you are forced to switch systems or the boiler breaks down, then you need to reassess the situation.
Fully insulating everything and heating entirely with electricity is not the ideal solution for many older buildings in the foreseeable future.
You’ve already identified the key point: adding external wall insulation to your house won’t pay off purely from an energy savings perspective within your lifetime.
However, if you are planning to renovate the facade anyway or actually want to switch to a heat pump, insulation becomes necessary.
With an annual oil consumption of 2000 liters (530 gallons), I would personally not do anything as long as the heating system is working and you are comfortable with the indoor temperature.
If at some point you are forced to switch systems or the boiler breaks down, then you need to reassess the situation.
Fully insulating everything and heating entirely with electricity is not the ideal solution for many older buildings in the foreseeable future.
H
hampshire5 Dec 2021 11:26From a purely financial perspective, it is worthwhile to wait for the upcoming funding programs. The coalition agreement includes several points regarding the renovation of the existing building stock.
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