ᐅ Underfloor heating and heat pumps. I thought I had it all figured out.
Created on: 10 Nov 2021 19:52
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Stefan001
Since October, we have been living in a KFW 55 house with an air-to-water heat pump and underfloor heating.
I have read through various sources about settings, hydraulic balancing, thermal balancing, and possibly lower heating curves... I thought I understood it.
Everything was fine to some extent: ERRs were switched off, the pump turned on 5-10 times a day, all rooms were consistently heated to their set temperatures, although the living room, where the temperature sensor is located, was constantly a bit too warm (23-24°C (73-75°F) instead of the target 21°C (70°F)). But now I wanted to focus on the hydraulic balancing.
The energy consultant came by after the heating installer and set the calculated hydraulic balance, reducing the flow rates from about 2 L/min (0.53 gal/min) to less than 1, more like 0.2-0.6 L/min (0.05-0.16 gal/min).
Most rooms are now cooler than before, the living room is at 22.5°C (72.5°F) but still warmer than the setpoint.
Now to my questions/understanding issues.
1.
The energy consultant said that an important factor is a maximum temperature difference between the flow and return pipes, and overall a low heating curve.
With the reduced volume flow, the flow speed should decrease, so the water stays longer in the heating circuit and thus releases more heat, increasing the temperature difference. But especially during the transition period, my flow temperature is already very close to the heating circuit temperature anyway, so the only way to create a temperature difference is by sharply raising the heating curve, and then the pump starts short cycling?!
2.
I have checked the flow and return temperatures several times, and today (7 PM), I noticed that the flow temperature is 22.7°C (73°F), the return temperature is 22.9°C (73.2°F), and the room temperature is 22.5°C (72.5°F).
How is it possible for the return temperature to be higher than the flow temperature? Basically, in most cases, I can hardly detect any temperature difference between flow and return.
3.
If the reference room is still getting warmer than the set temperature, what should I change? I thought about lowering the heating curve or reducing the flow rate. Which would be preferable? Lower the heating curve if most rooms are too warm, otherwise adjust the flow rate?
4.
What should I do if I cannot lower the heating curve any further? Currently, I have the base point at 20°C (68°F) and a slope of 0.25, which still results in relatively warm temperatures. I cannot lower the base point any further. The slope doesn’t seem to have much effect at the current outdoor temperatures. At what point does the base point intervene?
5.
What else should I keep in mind when adjusting the heating system? I can’t really interpret the flow and return values. How should they relate to each other and to the room temperature at this time?
Thank you very much for your help!
I have read through various sources about settings, hydraulic balancing, thermal balancing, and possibly lower heating curves... I thought I understood it.
Everything was fine to some extent: ERRs were switched off, the pump turned on 5-10 times a day, all rooms were consistently heated to their set temperatures, although the living room, where the temperature sensor is located, was constantly a bit too warm (23-24°C (73-75°F) instead of the target 21°C (70°F)). But now I wanted to focus on the hydraulic balancing.
The energy consultant came by after the heating installer and set the calculated hydraulic balance, reducing the flow rates from about 2 L/min (0.53 gal/min) to less than 1, more like 0.2-0.6 L/min (0.05-0.16 gal/min).
Most rooms are now cooler than before, the living room is at 22.5°C (72.5°F) but still warmer than the setpoint.
Now to my questions/understanding issues.
1.
The energy consultant said that an important factor is a maximum temperature difference between the flow and return pipes, and overall a low heating curve.
With the reduced volume flow, the flow speed should decrease, so the water stays longer in the heating circuit and thus releases more heat, increasing the temperature difference. But especially during the transition period, my flow temperature is already very close to the heating circuit temperature anyway, so the only way to create a temperature difference is by sharply raising the heating curve, and then the pump starts short cycling?!
2.
I have checked the flow and return temperatures several times, and today (7 PM), I noticed that the flow temperature is 22.7°C (73°F), the return temperature is 22.9°C (73.2°F), and the room temperature is 22.5°C (72.5°F).
How is it possible for the return temperature to be higher than the flow temperature? Basically, in most cases, I can hardly detect any temperature difference between flow and return.
3.
If the reference room is still getting warmer than the set temperature, what should I change? I thought about lowering the heating curve or reducing the flow rate. Which would be preferable? Lower the heating curve if most rooms are too warm, otherwise adjust the flow rate?
4.
What should I do if I cannot lower the heating curve any further? Currently, I have the base point at 20°C (68°F) and a slope of 0.25, which still results in relatively warm temperatures. I cannot lower the base point any further. The slope doesn’t seem to have much effect at the current outdoor temperatures. At what point does the base point intervene?
5.
What else should I keep in mind when adjusting the heating system? I can’t really interpret the flow and return values. How should they relate to each other and to the room temperature at this time?
Thank you very much for your help!
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hanghaus200011 Nov 2021 09:28Do you have many windows where the sun shines directly onto the floor?
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Stefan00111 Nov 2021 21:25RotorMotor schrieb:
Throttling everything isn’t ideal. It’s better to reduce the pump speed. Or is that not possible with the heat pump?
Which model is it anyway?
How large is the house?
Is a bypass valve installed? driver55 schrieb:
@TE: Please describe your system first. Only mention the relevant details. Stiebel Eltron LWZ CS5 Premium
150sqm (1600 sq ft), KfW55 standard, air-to-water heat pump with central ventilation.
2 heating circuits separated by floors.
No bypass valves installed.
KingJulien schrieb:
More like: was there actually a heating cycle running?
The 0.2°C (0.36°F) deviation is simply due to sensor inaccuracies, or just the installation location. Today the same behavior occurred, heating cycle was definitely running.
hanghaus2000 schrieb:
Do you have many windows where the sun shines directly on the floor? Relatively few. Especially since there hasn’t been much sun the last few days.
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HoisleBauer2211 Nov 2021 21:52If I may jump in with a question here (my planned house will be very similar to the original poster’s: 140 m² (1507 sq ft), air-to-water heat pump + central ventilation): My house builder says that for a KfW55 standard with a basement, underfloor heating is necessary everywhere if I use at least one basement room as an office/workroom. He said this has to do with thermal bridges that cause issues in the energy calculations if the basement is cold. Could that be correct? Also, in my case only one heating circuit is planned for all floors (basement, ground floor, upper floor) and a flow temperature of 35°C (95°F). It all seems a bit odd to me...
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Daniel-Sp11 Nov 2021 23:44Certainly, one heating circuit manifold per floor is planned, and they are all connected within one heating circuit. At least, that's how it is in my case, and it works very well.
A 35°C (95°F) supply temperature is not very ambitious, but do you have any influence on the planning?
If the basement is included within the thermal envelope, it must be planned with heating.
A 35°C (95°F) supply temperature is not very ambitious, but do you have any influence on the planning?
If the basement is included within the thermal envelope, it must be planned with heating.
Stefan001 schrieb:
No pressure relief valvesAre you sure? Then you have a buffer tank, right? Stefan001 schrieb:
Same behavior today, the heating cycle was definitely running.So the compressor was running? Then that shouldn’t be the case. Please take a photo of the display during the heating cycle, and possibly also of the heating circuit valves.
Stefan001 schrieb:
Stiebel Eltron LWZ CS5 Premium
150 m² (1,615 sq ft), KfW55, air-to-water heat pump with centralized ventilation.
2 heating circuits separated by floors.
No bypass valves.And where is the big remainder? The “2 times half” is still missing.Similar topics