ᐅ How was it again with proprietary systems?

Well, you are comparing 20-25 years with 5 years. But precisely because KNX systems have such a long service life, many KNX professionals still use ETS versions as far back as 2.x. In the community, there are also many people who collect old applications, and manufacturers maintain archives. This covers a lot of ground. Which other electrical devices have such a lifespan? A copper wiring system with a rocker switch naturally lasts seemingly forever, but if I install sufficiently complex electronics in my home, I will eventually have to expect a failure at some point.

A defective device that can be replaced (albeit with some effort) is a completely different situation than the manufacturer simply discontinuing my still functional device without any alternatives after 5 years. That’s what this is about.

Well, if you rely on devices that are tied to the cloud, you have to be prepared for that. But this has nothing to do with smart home systems. Just because you can control a few lights with your phone doesn't mean it qualifies.

untergasse43 schrieb:

Well, you are comparing 20-25 years with 5 years. But precisely because KNX systems have such a long lifespan, many KNX professionals still run ETS versions going back to 2.x. In the community, there are also many people who collect old applications, and manufacturers maintain archives. This covers quite a lot. What other electrical devices have such a lifespan? A copper cable with a toggle switch may last seemingly forever, but if I install sufficiently complex electronics in my house, I might eventually have to expect a failure.

A defective device that can be replaced (albeit with some effort) is a completely different issue than the manufacturer simply discontinuing my fully functional device after 5 years without any alternative. That’s the point.

Of course, the comparison might have been a bit extreme, but even with KNX, problems can occur. Such a system won’t run indefinitely, but definitely for longer.

Sure, ETS 1.x still runs on an old laptop with a communication interface without issues, that’s not the point. The problem is that new components don’t work with the old ETS, and old components don’t work with the new ETS. This can happen. Then the only options are either disabling functions or replacing all the old components that don’t work with the new ETS with new ones — meaning old components become non-functional.

My point was simply to clarify that even with KNX, it is possible that components may become unusable after years, even if they are not faulty.

SteffenBank schrieb:

Sure, ETS 1.x still runs on an old laptop with a COM interface without any issues on our side; that’s not the point. The problem is that new components don’t work with the old ETS versions, and old components don’t work with the new ones. This situation can occur. Then, you can only either disable certain functions or replace all the old components that don’t work with the new ETS versions with new ones — meaning the old components become non-functional.

Just to wrap this up and because I want to get this off my chest: you don’t have to manage an old KNX system entirely with one ETS version. The group address doesn’t care whether the ETS is old or new.

SteffenBank schrieb:

I only wanted to clarify that even with KNX, it can happen that, over time, components may no longer be operable even though they are not defective.

Absolutely right. After all, it’s electronics.

SteffenBank schrieb:

Your system is "finished," then runs trouble-free for 20-25 years, after which some of the first components fail, and you can no longer get replacements. You would have to replace them with current components and upgrade to ETS 20. The problem is that many of the old components can no longer be configured because they are not supported by the latest ETS. Then is it just a standard modernization?

Yes, exactly, yes, and yes again. It is a normal modernization after 20-25 years. Nobody claims that KNX is forever, but after 20/25/30 years you can simply replace the components, reconfigure them, and everything works as usual, just as you described.

Regarding ETS, it is a piece of software. Nowadays, software is often outdated already when released, and a patch follows directly afterwards. I personally have 3 functional versions that cover most of what is still in operation today.

However, there are ways even today to keep components from the late 1990s running or to install them in new systems. Untergasse has demonstrated several examples. Of course, those without experience or expertise lack the knowledge. Someone knowledgeable and motivated would most likely have no problems keeping the old system running, just replacing the defective devices and reconfiguring them with a newer ETS.

Putting aside the fundamental debate, it is still more economical to replace a proprietary system every 5 years than to install KNX once for 25 years. KNX is simply disproportionately expensive.