Hello,
since the house construction will start soon, we spent the last few days thinking about lighting and socket planning.
Basically, we want to focus more on LED technology and also include indirect lighting.
I have a few questions about that.
1. Stairwell
We have a half-turn staircase with a tall, narrow window.
We would like to install step lights just above the stairs here.
Do the spotlights provide enough light for the stairwell, or should wall lights also be installed, for example?
How should the wiring be designed? Spotlights controlled by a timer and wall lights by a switch or motion sensor?
2. Hallway
We would like to control the lighting with recessed motion sensors.
Is it still possible to have continuous light with motion sensors?
In our current hallway, I installed a ceiling motion sensor between the switch and the lamp. When standing there and talking to someone, the light keeps turning off. At the switch, I can only set it to permanent off, but not to permanent on.
3. Living room
We would like to integrate indirect lighting with a suspended ceiling here.
Does anyone have experience with what should be considered or has seen this setup in real life?
4. Sockets
Where are sockets typically planned nowadays? Apart from the kitchen, are they usually installed about 30cm (12 inches) above the floor, or is a socket always installed under the light switch? When vacuuming around the house, bending down to 30cm (12 inches) often doesn’t make much sense.
The electrician hired by the general contractor will likely charge 40€ per socket and 80€ for a double socket.
I find 80€ rather expensive given that no additional cable has to be laid. Is this normal?
Is it better to order only single sockets and add double sockets later as a DIY project?
My uncle used to be an electrician, and I have already connected sockets myself. Of course, this means making fresh openings in the walls again.
5. Dimmers
Where do dimmers make sense?
6. Roller shutters
Except for the patio door, we have only selected manual window roller shutters.
Currently, we plan to install a socket for each window. If money allows in the future and we want to retrofit electric roller shutters, we could use the power from there in my opinion, or is there any objection to doing so? Do you have to consider anything regarding roller shutters to make sure they can be retrofitted?
since the house construction will start soon, we spent the last few days thinking about lighting and socket planning.
Basically, we want to focus more on LED technology and also include indirect lighting.
I have a few questions about that.
1. Stairwell
We have a half-turn staircase with a tall, narrow window.
We would like to install step lights just above the stairs here.
Do the spotlights provide enough light for the stairwell, or should wall lights also be installed, for example?
How should the wiring be designed? Spotlights controlled by a timer and wall lights by a switch or motion sensor?
2. Hallway
We would like to control the lighting with recessed motion sensors.
Is it still possible to have continuous light with motion sensors?
In our current hallway, I installed a ceiling motion sensor between the switch and the lamp. When standing there and talking to someone, the light keeps turning off. At the switch, I can only set it to permanent off, but not to permanent on.
3. Living room
We would like to integrate indirect lighting with a suspended ceiling here.
Does anyone have experience with what should be considered or has seen this setup in real life?
4. Sockets
Where are sockets typically planned nowadays? Apart from the kitchen, are they usually installed about 30cm (12 inches) above the floor, or is a socket always installed under the light switch? When vacuuming around the house, bending down to 30cm (12 inches) often doesn’t make much sense.
The electrician hired by the general contractor will likely charge 40€ per socket and 80€ for a double socket.
I find 80€ rather expensive given that no additional cable has to be laid. Is this normal?
Is it better to order only single sockets and add double sockets later as a DIY project?
My uncle used to be an electrician, and I have already connected sockets myself. Of course, this means making fresh openings in the walls again.
5. Dimmers
Where do dimmers make sense?
6. Roller shutters
Except for the patio door, we have only selected manual window roller shutters.
Currently, we plan to install a socket for each window. If money allows in the future and we want to retrofit electric roller shutters, we could use the power from there in my opinion, or is there any objection to doing so? Do you have to consider anything regarding roller shutters to make sure they can be retrofitted?
Basically, we want to increasingly rely on LED technology and also incorporate indirect lighting.
I generally have a few questions about this. I thought the same until I found out the prices. Aside from the fact that the technology is not yet fully developed and the light can sometimes be quite unusual, the prices are astonishing.
For example, our pendant lamp above the dining table (7x20 watts halogen) cost just under €200 including modular lamp shades.
We searched for a long time for an alternative, and what we found were lamps looking exactly the same but with BUILT-IN LED lights. The seller assured us that they never break, which I believe about LEDs, but what is quite likely to fail is the electronics behind them.
The price for this was a discounted €800. Now quickly calculate how much electricity I would get for €600, and how long the lamp would have to run for that.
Our lamp has been hanging for 6 months now, and so far no bulb failures. And if there were, the replacement bulbs cost only about €1.30 each when bought in bulk. Just one example.
Power outlets:
We have one power outlet under the light switch at the entrance to every room. Although our vacuum cleaner has a 10m (33 ft) cable… one outlet in the hallway would have sufficed, as that is all we currently use for vacuuming.
Regarding the price, we were also charged €45 per outlet. With almost 60 additional outlets in the house, that would have been a considerable amount. Luckily, that cost was removed after negotiations. In the end, we got a free pass for electrical work and were able to freely distribute outlets and switches as we liked.
Doing it yourself: just check first who will cover the warranty.
Musketier schrieb:
Hello,
since the house construction is starting soon, we have spent the last few days thinking about lighting and socket planning.Our electrical planning was done recently as well... just check the thread, I got good information but have now planned some things differently. I will refer to that shortly.
Musketier schrieb:
Basically, we want to focus more on LED technology and also include indirect lighting.
I have a few questions in general.
1. Stairwell
We have a half-turned staircase with a tall, narrow window.
We would like to install step lights just above the steps here.
Do these spotlights provide enough light for the staircase, or should wall lights also be installed?
How should the switching be designed? Spotlights controlled by a timer switch and wall lights by a regular switch or motion sensor?We have now chosen spotlights for the stairwell (which is open to the living area) that are not directly above the steps but are wired together with additional accent spots. They will use 1-watt LED bulbs, controllable from the hallway and upstairs. These can be left on continuously, which is useful in the darker months and might be suitable for you as well.
I would also add a wall or ceiling outlet there so you can spot cobwebs easily when cleaning.
Musketier schrieb:
2. Hallway
We want to control the lighting with flush-mounted motion sensors.
Is continuous light still possible with motion sensors?
Currently, I have a ceiling motion sensor between the switch and light in our hallway. When standing and chatting with someone, the light keeps going off. The switch can only be set to permanent off, not permanent on.With motion sensors, consider that while they are practical, you’ll often be illuminated when someone rings at the door in the dark. Or if you want to listen for noises, you might not want to stand constantly in bright light. Otherwise, it is usually possible to have both: we plan to use motion sensors outside but also want a control for continuous light, and according to our electrician, that can be done.
Musketier schrieb:
4. Sockets
Where are sockets typically installed nowadays? Apart from the kitchen, are they usually placed about 30cm (12 inches) above the floor, or do people install a socket under the light switch as well? When vacuuming, bending down to 30cm doesn’t seem very practical.Our electrician follows the standard, which is apparently around 25–30cm (10–12 inches). Work sockets are under the light switch and usually standard for every room.
We omitted some work sockets since I don’t want to keep unplugging vacuum cleaners in every room. Also, it annoys me to have to feel around for a socket in the dark near the light switch. We walked through the rooms and planned where it might be needed or convenient to plug in.
Musketier schrieb:
Our general contractor’s electrician charges about €40 per socket and €80 for a double socket.
I find €80 quite expensive for a socket where no additional cable has to be installed. Is this normal?
Would it be better to order single sockets and later install double sockets yourself?
My uncle used to be an electrician, and I have installed sockets myself before. Of course, you have to open fresh walls again.Our general contractor charges €39.50 per socket. We left this item open.
During the site inspection, we went through everything with the electrician, who gave us a quote for additional wiring. His price was €26.50 per socket, and other items were cheaper too. A data socket costs half what the contractor charges (€60 instead of €120).
Our contractor no longer wants to be involved with our own work; standard sockets were removed from the contractor’s scope, and the extra costs will be paid directly to the electrician.
With porous clay blocks (red brick), dust is a problem, so retrofitting is tricky. But it’s possible to convert one socket to two, especially if only a charger is plugged in. You also don’t notice a triple socket behind a bookshelf.
Musketier schrieb:
5. Dimmer
Where does it make sense to install dimmers?Above the dining table to avoid glare. Living room ceiling lights to create ambiance. Fixtures and bulbs must be dimmer-compatible. We also installed dimmers in the bathroom for the ceiling lights, which is nice when taking a bath.
In summary, install dimmers wherever the main light should also serve as mood lighting.
Musketier schrieb:
6. Roller Shutters
Except for the patio door, we have only chosen manual window shutters.
Currently, we plan to install a socket at every window. If we ever have extra money and want to retrofit electric shutters, we could probably draw power from those sockets, or is there something to consider? Does the shutter have to be prepared in a special way to be convertible?We do it the same way. We have electric shutters now, and it is annoying. The automatic function is switched off. We won’t always operate the shutters electrically, but we think the aluminum shutters can still be operated manually with little effort.
That’s about all I can say about it.
Have fun planning!
A
AallRounder16 Sep 2013 20:57Hello Musketier,
Regarding point 2)
When using flush-mounted infrared sensors combined with LED technology, you need to be careful not to choose the usual “standard” sensors that are only designed for regular resistive loads like incandescent or halogen lamps.
It’s no problem to have either no light at all or continuous light despite sensor control. My 10 m (33 ft) high stairwell extending over three floors lights up sensor-controlled for 5 minutes as soon as you take the first step without pressing any switch, which is enough time even if you move slowly along the longest path. I wired the sensors in parallel with my three-way switches, so you only have to operate one of the three switches to get continuous light. Of course, then you have to remember to switch it off again. In case blackout mode is implemented, there are “emergency off switches” wired in series on each floor, so that every floor has equal control. A professional should be able to do this easily. I actually installed it myself, but had it tested and approved by a company. That saved me well over €10,000 (including LAN/ISDN/alarm system) partly because of the complex flush-mounted chasing work.
Point 4)
There are also double sockets that require only one flush-mounted box. Otherwise, you would need to cut a second box above or below. The wiring is no problem because you only have to connect the conductors to the next box. The conductor cross-section of the cable used does not need to be changed; the second socket can be loaded the same way as the first.
The idea of having so-called “work sockets” directly under the switch gives me shivers. In my opinion, it only serves to make installation easier for the electrician. Even the heavy hanging of the power cable from the wall creates a tripping hazard in my view.
Regarding point 2)
When using flush-mounted infrared sensors combined with LED technology, you need to be careful not to choose the usual “standard” sensors that are only designed for regular resistive loads like incandescent or halogen lamps.
It’s no problem to have either no light at all or continuous light despite sensor control. My 10 m (33 ft) high stairwell extending over three floors lights up sensor-controlled for 5 minutes as soon as you take the first step without pressing any switch, which is enough time even if you move slowly along the longest path. I wired the sensors in parallel with my three-way switches, so you only have to operate one of the three switches to get continuous light. Of course, then you have to remember to switch it off again. In case blackout mode is implemented, there are “emergency off switches” wired in series on each floor, so that every floor has equal control. A professional should be able to do this easily. I actually installed it myself, but had it tested and approved by a company. That saved me well over €10,000 (including LAN/ISDN/alarm system) partly because of the complex flush-mounted chasing work.
Point 4)
There are also double sockets that require only one flush-mounted box. Otherwise, you would need to cut a second box above or below. The wiring is no problem because you only have to connect the conductors to the next box. The conductor cross-section of the cable used does not need to be changed; the second socket can be loaded the same way as the first.
The idea of having so-called “work sockets” directly under the switch gives me shivers. In my opinion, it only serves to make installation easier for the electrician. Even the heavy hanging of the power cable from the wall creates a tripping hazard in my view.
Der Da schrieb:
I thought so too, until I saw the prices. Apart from the technology not being fully developed yet and the lighting being quite unusual in places, the prices are really shocking.Yes, I’ve noticed that as well. Strangely, the tubes and especially the strips are quite cheap in comparison. You can create good indirect lighting with these. However, I haven’t seen them in person anywhere yet. For regular lighting, I generally prefer standard fixtures combined with LED bulbs. I think I will test that out beforehand.
ypg schrieb:
Our electrical plan was done recently… just check the thread; I got good information there but also changed some plans since. I will refer to that as well.I have followed that thread with interest.
ypg schrieb:
We have now chosen spotlights for the staircase (which is open to the living area), not placed on the steps themselves but connected to additional accent lights. We are installing 1-watt LED bulbs that can be switched off from both the hallway downstairs and upstairs. They can stay on all the time—ideal during the darker months, which suits your location.
Also, I would recommend installing a wall or ceiling outlet there, so you can easily see cobwebs while cleaning. Are 1-watt LEDs sufficient for safely using the stairs, or do you still turn on the regular staircase lighting every time? Have you seen this setup anywhere in person? I think having two wall outlets makes sense. They should probably be switchable independently of the upper or lower hallway lighting.
ypg schrieb:
Regarding motion sensors, I would think about it carefully: while they can be practical, you might be standing in the light when someone rings the doorbell in the dark. Or if you want to respond to noises, standing in full light is not always comfortable. Of course, it’s possible to have both: we plan to use motion sensors outside but also have a circuit for continuous lighting, and according to the electrician, this can be done. I find motion detectors great for rooms you pass through since the light switches off automatically. I was called “coal thief” as a child because I left the lights on everywhere.
ypg schrieb:
Our general contractor charges 39.50 per socket. However, this item is still open for negotiation.
During the inspection with the electrician, we reviewed everything, and he gave us an estimate for the additional wiring. For him, a socket was 26.50, and everything else was cheaper as well. For example, a data outlet costs only half as much compared to the general contractor (60 instead of 120).
Our general contractor wants nothing to do with our own work anymore; standard sockets were deducted by the electrician, and the surcharge invoice is paid directly to the electrician. The 40€ or 80€ quoted by the general contractor is apparently what the electrician charges us directly. Prices in eastern Germany are supposed to be somewhat lower than yours in the west. So there is definitely room for negotiation. I found network outlets cheaper despite needing more cables connected there.
ypg schrieb:
Above the dining table, to avoid glare. Living room ceiling lighting to create ambiance. Fixtures and bulbs need to be suitable. We also planned dimmers in the bathroom for the ceiling lights. We installed them now, and it’s nice for bathing.
Dimmers everywhere where the main light can also be mood lighting. Makes perfect sense.
Allrounder schrieb:
Hello Musketier,
Regarding point 2)
When using recessed infrared sensors with LED lighting, be careful not to get the usual “standard” sensors that only work with standard resistive loads like incandescent or halogen lamps. Good to know.
It is not a problem to have either no light or continuous light despite sensor technology. My 10-meter (33 ft) tall staircase spanning 3 floors is sensor-activated for five minutes without pressing a button when you first step in, which is enough even if you linger on the longest route. The sensors are wired in parallel with my 3-way switch system, so you only need to use one of the three switches to get continuous light. However, you need to remember to turn it off again. If blackout control is installed, there are emergency switches connected in series on each floor allowing shutdown so that every floor has equal priority. A professional can easily manage this. I built it myself but had it tested and approved by a company, which saved me more than €10,000 including LAN/ISDN/alarm system costs due to avoiding complex flush conduit chasing.
Allrounder schrieb:
4)
There are also double sockets that require only one installation box. Otherwise, you would need to cut a second box above or below. Wiring is no problem because you just have to connect the wires to the next socket. The conductor cross-section of the cable doesn’t need to be changed; the second socket can be loaded just like the first. I think I could handle adding a second socket and connecting the cables myself. I’ve installed and wired sockets before. It probably won’t be as fast as a professional, but making double sockets out of 20 single sockets would save me €650 after material costs.
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