ᐅ Comparability of Costs: Architect vs. General Contractor
Created on: 4 Mar 2021 16:57
A
askforafriend
Hello dear forum,
We are currently in the planning phase for a single-family house. We have requested quotes from several general contractors and have also spoken with a very approachable architect. We would be happy to present our building project (BVH) in detail at a later stage!
Overall, we much prefer the transparency and approach of the architect compared to the initial consultation with the general contractor. We understand that over time, we will also speak with an architect/planner through the general contractor who will discuss details with us. We have thoroughly researched the advantages and disadvantages both in this forum and through various guides.
At this stage, our main focus is on comparing the cost estimates from the general contractors versus the architect. The general contractor states the costs as a fixed price (based on the building and scope of services description) plus our additional requests (extra electrical outlets, KfW standard, etc.). A rough total for the house including additional requests was, for example, 410,000 euros. This naturally also includes architectural/planning/engineering services according to the scope of work description.
Land leveling.
Discussions about your building project together with you during planning and construction meetings. Preparation of building permit/planning permission documents at a scale of 1:100 in the required number of copies for the authorities.
You will receive an additional set of plans for your personal records.
Development of working drawings (scale 1:50) as well as any necessary detailed drawings.
Creation of structural engineering plans (standard structural design for the respective house type) including any required building physics reports for thermal and fire protection.
Calculation of energy demand and preparation of the energy performance certificate. A copy will be provided for your records.
Preparation of public funding applications, if required.
Site management and construction supervision up to handover of the house.
Support during the warranty period.
When we first met with the architect, he took out a book labeled BKI to provide a rough estimate of the feasibility of the building project based on this data. He calculated roughly 3,000 euros per square meter and 150 square meters (1,615 square feet) of living space, resulting in a total of 450,000 euros.
The big question now is: Does this amount exclude his fees or do these average construction costs per square meter already include the services mentioned above? This might be a somewhat naive question, but it’s really unclear to us. Is there a list of costs that are included in these average rates?
We have an appointment with him next week for a more detailed cost assessment.
Thank you very much for your feedback, and I wish you a pleasant week.
We are currently in the planning phase for a single-family house. We have requested quotes from several general contractors and have also spoken with a very approachable architect. We would be happy to present our building project (BVH) in detail at a later stage!
Overall, we much prefer the transparency and approach of the architect compared to the initial consultation with the general contractor. We understand that over time, we will also speak with an architect/planner through the general contractor who will discuss details with us. We have thoroughly researched the advantages and disadvantages both in this forum and through various guides.
At this stage, our main focus is on comparing the cost estimates from the general contractors versus the architect. The general contractor states the costs as a fixed price (based on the building and scope of services description) plus our additional requests (extra electrical outlets, KfW standard, etc.). A rough total for the house including additional requests was, for example, 410,000 euros. This naturally also includes architectural/planning/engineering services according to the scope of work description.
Land leveling.
Discussions about your building project together with you during planning and construction meetings. Preparation of building permit/planning permission documents at a scale of 1:100 in the required number of copies for the authorities.
You will receive an additional set of plans for your personal records.
Development of working drawings (scale 1:50) as well as any necessary detailed drawings.
Creation of structural engineering plans (standard structural design for the respective house type) including any required building physics reports for thermal and fire protection.
Calculation of energy demand and preparation of the energy performance certificate. A copy will be provided for your records.
Preparation of public funding applications, if required.
Site management and construction supervision up to handover of the house.
Support during the warranty period.
When we first met with the architect, he took out a book labeled BKI to provide a rough estimate of the feasibility of the building project based on this data. He calculated roughly 3,000 euros per square meter and 150 square meters (1,615 square feet) of living space, resulting in a total of 450,000 euros.
The big question now is: Does this amount exclude his fees or do these average construction costs per square meter already include the services mentioned above? This might be a somewhat naive question, but it’s really unclear to us. Is there a list of costs that are included in these average rates?
We have an appointment with him next week for a more detailed cost assessment.
Thank you very much for your feedback, and I wish you a pleasant week.
askforafriend5 Mar 2021 14:24apokolok schrieb:
For me, the increasing popularity of building with a general contractor (GC) can only be explained by people’s need for security. In the end, though, 90% end up paying extra, many significantly more than they expected when signing the contract.Exactly! Guarantees cost money. I believe the GC can only guarantee or stick to the fixed price if they plan a proper contingency. We also include that contingency in our budget to cushion surprises. That contingency essentially costs us money too, since we could have been investing it profitably in the meantime 🙂
askforafriend5 Mar 2021 14:27Myrna_Loy schrieb:
Planning with architects often becomes more expensive because they present you with nicer sample materials – trade fair novelties, higher quality finishes – which you then naturally want as well. 😀 My weekend grocery shopping at the discount store is also cheaper than if I were let loose in the delicatessen section.Yes – a colleague of mine is currently building her own house and has already moved far beyond the original budget, as every wish immediately multiplies many times over. However, this is probably also true when working with general contractors 🙂 For example, we have already given up on having a fireplace – we currently live in a KFW70 (energy standard) semi-detached house with a heat pump and underfloor heating, and we don’t know when we would even use a fireplace (if we had one now). Certainly not because the house is cold 😉
N
nordanney5 Mar 2021 14:39askforafriend schrieb:
and don’t know when we should light the fireplace (if we had one now)... Because it’s cold in the house, certainly not 😉You can always turn it on. The fire is cozy and nice – except for midsummer – 😉 . But of course, it also increases costs.Normally, an architect-designed house ends up being more expensive because the client keeps having new ideas. But that’s not the architect’s fault.
Oh dear!
With Eric Malpass, the world is still in order at seven in the morning, but here in the forum at seven this morning, a large barrel of all kinds of nonsense from various regulars about architects and general contractors was spilled. I first had to take a little heart medicine and will now address, point by point, everything that was said in that broadside:
Buying an architectural design and then handing over further planning to the general contractor:
Purchasing just a set of plans from an independent architect without having him detail and implement them would be like casting pearls before swine and, on top of that, unwise. You would be killing two birds with one stone, unfortunately both in the sense of own goals. On the one hand, you would reduce the architect to a mere creative figure and miss out on the real added value of having the composer personally conducting. There are always ideas that cannot be fully captured in a blueprint—these get lost when a "stranger" finishes the brilliant work.
Going to the general contractor with a forum design:
In this case, you only get a "nicer" house than what a frustrated draftsman would come up with, but without the sophisticated execution. After all, such a forum community cannot take over construction management via video chat.
General contractors pass markup requests on to their subcontractors and then add margins on their quotes:
This assumption reflects a fundamentally incorrect understanding of the process. Smart GCs have their own core team (usually masons, concrete workers, and helpers) and prefer to subcontract additional trades to those subs who are skilled and hardworking but would struggle as estimators or salespeople, starving without the GC’s support. The GC does the estimating himself, and the markup has two factors: the expected actual extra effort and, if necessary, a defensive pricing factor to discourage the owner from requesting special wishes. The subcontractor only estimates independently if the GC removes the trade from his scope (e.g., if the owner wants to choose an unconventional heating solution that the GC hasn’t tested).
Architects pass markup requests on to their subcontractors and then add margins on their quotes:
The architect only conducts the tender once the scope of work has been finalized with the client. Making changes to the specifications after the contract is awarded is the absolute worst thing a client can do financially, and the architect will impress this rule firmly on the client in good time. Markups, commissions, kickbacks, and similar practices would be unethical and could cost the architect their professional registration.
Architect-designed houses exceed price estimates like Kulenkampff exceeded broadcast time, allegedly due to picky clients:
That architects significantly overrun price estimates mainly—but almost exclusively—happens in two scenarios: when the architect has been out of practical practice for years due to academic work and/or when they are promoted as a “star architect” in nouveau riche circles. Therefore, it’s best to avoid professors/private lecturers or architects responsible for flashy provincial mansions. Reputable, budget-conscious architects are completely unknown to the tabloid press. And, of course, it costs extra if even the guest toilet has a gold-trimmed bowl—but that would also be just as expensive with a general contractor build.
For an easy-to-maintain lot and a standard profile, a draftsman is enough:
You don’t primarily need an architect for originality, and at least compared to 98% of typical homeowners, the differences between Hoppenstedts and Biedermeiers are not worth flying in a big-name artist for. But architectural planning isn’t about that; it’s about properly organizing the complex conditions of construction into a three-dimensional, livable object. The reason a GC planner has downspouts awkwardly boxed in is simply because they don’t plan their precise routing at all, as GC planning mostly replaces detailed work with “good enough” solutions, omitting non-permit-relevant details, with downspouts only showing up in the drainage planning.
Extra charge for a front door in a different color is related to volume discounts:
That’s nonsense, especially since we mostly talk about PVC doors here, and "anthracite" doors are also white and only laminated. Charging 2,300 euros (~2,300 euros) for that is clearly an extravagant 300 euros for the lamination and around 2,000 euros split roughly half and half as a defensive surcharge and as the "sauna club" house price for an ordinary fairground beer.
Concrete stairs are more expensive than steel stringer stairs:
The "crane" solution here is very likely the perfect choice. Casting in-place concrete stairs has become extremely unfashionable due to skilled labor shortages. However, precast concrete stairs cannot be just carried in by two movers like a piano brought over by mom from Massachusetts; they might require a dedicated crane appointment (including road closures and all the related hassle). Steel stringer stair parts only require a small truck crane. Additionally, a new way of thinking is necessary, and the metalworker is idle here because you don’t need him for installing concrete stairs.
Building with a general contractor out of the need for a fixed price:
A general contractor will typically not price differently whether bidding for all individual lots or offering a price to an owner based on their Sweethome3D floor plan. The size of the markup mainly depends on the duration of the offer’s binding period.
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
With Eric Malpass, the world is still in order at seven in the morning, but here in the forum at seven this morning, a large barrel of all kinds of nonsense from various regulars about architects and general contractors was spilled. I first had to take a little heart medicine and will now address, point by point, everything that was said in that broadside:
Buying an architectural design and then handing over further planning to the general contractor:
Purchasing just a set of plans from an independent architect without having him detail and implement them would be like casting pearls before swine and, on top of that, unwise. You would be killing two birds with one stone, unfortunately both in the sense of own goals. On the one hand, you would reduce the architect to a mere creative figure and miss out on the real added value of having the composer personally conducting. There are always ideas that cannot be fully captured in a blueprint—these get lost when a "stranger" finishes the brilliant work.
Going to the general contractor with a forum design:
In this case, you only get a "nicer" house than what a frustrated draftsman would come up with, but without the sophisticated execution. After all, such a forum community cannot take over construction management via video chat.
General contractors pass markup requests on to their subcontractors and then add margins on their quotes:
This assumption reflects a fundamentally incorrect understanding of the process. Smart GCs have their own core team (usually masons, concrete workers, and helpers) and prefer to subcontract additional trades to those subs who are skilled and hardworking but would struggle as estimators or salespeople, starving without the GC’s support. The GC does the estimating himself, and the markup has two factors: the expected actual extra effort and, if necessary, a defensive pricing factor to discourage the owner from requesting special wishes. The subcontractor only estimates independently if the GC removes the trade from his scope (e.g., if the owner wants to choose an unconventional heating solution that the GC hasn’t tested).
Architects pass markup requests on to their subcontractors and then add margins on their quotes:
The architect only conducts the tender once the scope of work has been finalized with the client. Making changes to the specifications after the contract is awarded is the absolute worst thing a client can do financially, and the architect will impress this rule firmly on the client in good time. Markups, commissions, kickbacks, and similar practices would be unethical and could cost the architect their professional registration.
Architect-designed houses exceed price estimates like Kulenkampff exceeded broadcast time, allegedly due to picky clients:
That architects significantly overrun price estimates mainly—but almost exclusively—happens in two scenarios: when the architect has been out of practical practice for years due to academic work and/or when they are promoted as a “star architect” in nouveau riche circles. Therefore, it’s best to avoid professors/private lecturers or architects responsible for flashy provincial mansions. Reputable, budget-conscious architects are completely unknown to the tabloid press. And, of course, it costs extra if even the guest toilet has a gold-trimmed bowl—but that would also be just as expensive with a general contractor build.
For an easy-to-maintain lot and a standard profile, a draftsman is enough:
You don’t primarily need an architect for originality, and at least compared to 98% of typical homeowners, the differences between Hoppenstedts and Biedermeiers are not worth flying in a big-name artist for. But architectural planning isn’t about that; it’s about properly organizing the complex conditions of construction into a three-dimensional, livable object. The reason a GC planner has downspouts awkwardly boxed in is simply because they don’t plan their precise routing at all, as GC planning mostly replaces detailed work with “good enough” solutions, omitting non-permit-relevant details, with downspouts only showing up in the drainage planning.
Extra charge for a front door in a different color is related to volume discounts:
That’s nonsense, especially since we mostly talk about PVC doors here, and "anthracite" doors are also white and only laminated. Charging 2,300 euros (~2,300 euros) for that is clearly an extravagant 300 euros for the lamination and around 2,000 euros split roughly half and half as a defensive surcharge and as the "sauna club" house price for an ordinary fairground beer.
Concrete stairs are more expensive than steel stringer stairs:
The "crane" solution here is very likely the perfect choice. Casting in-place concrete stairs has become extremely unfashionable due to skilled labor shortages. However, precast concrete stairs cannot be just carried in by two movers like a piano brought over by mom from Massachusetts; they might require a dedicated crane appointment (including road closures and all the related hassle). Steel stringer stair parts only require a small truck crane. Additionally, a new way of thinking is necessary, and the metalworker is idle here because you don’t need him for installing concrete stairs.
Building with a general contractor out of the need for a fixed price:
A general contractor will typically not price differently whether bidding for all individual lots or offering a price to an owner based on their Sweethome3D floor plan. The size of the markup mainly depends on the duration of the offer’s binding period.
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
Even if you are right about the other points, I have to disagree with you here!
As I mentioned earlier: either the architect’s house fits in with the general contractor’s houses (visually and in terms of floor plan), or it is an oddity—cool, impressive, brilliant, unusual, interestingly different—but with a very complicated everyday workflow. And even if it is supposedly different but not complicated, it does not exactly have a great reputation here in the forum. But as I said before: when you plan a house over 200 sqm (2150 sq ft), things look much more relaxed to everyone. With 140 sqm (1500 sq ft), you inevitably end up in the same spots.
Because of my job, I get to see all facets of interior spaces. As a former real estate photographer, I have especially seen architects’ houses in the higher price range, but also the average ones.
apokolok schrieb:They do care... okay, if they build over 200 houses a year, some will have issues. But fundamentally, their assessments have to be more consistent nationwide than those of an architect who is recommended locally and designs 3-6 houses per year. The standard house designs do work in everyday life! Of course, if the client wants a dressing room for Mrs., a urinal for the client, a kids’ bathroom, and so on—even if these spaces are small—there will be a missing 4-14 sqm (43-150 sq ft) here or there. In a 120/140 sqm (1300/1500 sq ft) house, you definitely notice that. Ultimately, every standard house comes from an architect’s mind.
The general contractor basically doesn’t care whether the house is properly positioned or functions well in daily life.
apokolok schrieb:Yes, but a reference project, passion, and top quality in the sense of a freelance architect often conflict significantly with practical functionality and everyday usability. That may work with a floor area over 120 sqm (1300 sq ft) per level, but not with the “downsized” sizes of standard houses.
The architect plans with a lot more passion. Ideally, they want to deliver top quality and create a reference project to showcase their skills.
apokolok schrieb:
They also think about practical workflows inside and around the house
apokolok schrieb:
and whether it works well in daily life.
As I mentioned earlier: either the architect’s house fits in with the general contractor’s houses (visually and in terms of floor plan), or it is an oddity—cool, impressive, brilliant, unusual, interestingly different—but with a very complicated everyday workflow. And even if it is supposedly different but not complicated, it does not exactly have a great reputation here in the forum. But as I said before: when you plan a house over 200 sqm (2150 sq ft), things look much more relaxed to everyone. With 140 sqm (1500 sq ft), you inevitably end up in the same spots.
Because of my job, I get to see all facets of interior spaces. As a former real estate photographer, I have especially seen architects’ houses in the higher price range, but also the average ones.
askforafriend5 Mar 2021 16:14nordanney schrieb:
You can always light it. The fire is always cozy and nice—except for midsummer of course 😉 . But it is naturally also a cost factor.
Generally, homes designed by architects tend to be more expensive because the owner keeps coming up with new ideas. But that’s not the architect’s fault. Very true. We can control ourselves quite well 😉
...
No, seriously 😀
I believe the saying “architect-designed houses are more expensive” shows correlation, not causation. Because: of course, someone with a budget of 2 million prefers to work with an architect rather than a general contractor who builds standard production homes. That usually means the more expensive properties come from architects. However, that is a correlation—the causal link between “architect” and “expensive” would only exist if architects always built costly projects by default.
Many of you have pointed out that architects build what they are instructed to. And if that is “just” a nice, cozy, rectangular house of 160m² (1700 sq ft) with a custom floor plan for 400,000 euros, then hopefully they will stick to that.
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