ᐅ Floor Plan for a Multi-Generational Home Conversion of an Old Barn
Created on: 9 Feb 2021 21:56
D
derclaus
Hello dear forum members,
I have been quietly following the discussions for some time now and am curious to share the first drafts of our house construction project—to see what feedback I get. I can hardly imagine that anyone outside of this project can really understand it, but I will do my best to make the introduction as clear and informative as possible.
Background:
About two years ago, my family (wife, three children aged 7, 5, and 3), my sister-in-law, and my parents-in-law moved to an estate near Oldenburg. The estate measures about 3.5 hectares (including 2 hectares (5 acres) of pasture for my sister-in-law’s horses). Over the past few years, we have been almost daily occupied with restoring the estate and maintaining the surrounding land and large areas.
Current Status GROUND FLOOR
Together with a friend (a carpenter and exhibition builder), I started planning the conversion of the barn belonging to the estate to create an apartment for my family. However, most of the work comes from me; my friend only gave me some initial support and is not further involved in the project. The usable footprint is predetermined because part of the barn must remain storage space for equipment, etc. We have already made several drafts, and I would like to share what I consider the best ones here. Overall, we are quite satisfied with the ground floor approach, but the lighting situation is particularly challenging since windows can only be placed on one side—as only the south side of the barn can be converted. The plan is to include a living-dining-kitchen area with a fireplace, staircase, utility room, master bedroom with walk-in closet, and a full bathroom preferably with a bathtub.
An important note: two pillars (30x30cm (12x12 inches)) run from the floor all the way to the roof. These cannot be altered for structural reasons and also affect the layout of the upper floor, including room arrangements and staircase positioning. We have fixed the south side width at 14–15 meters (46–49 feet), with a maximum of 16 meters (52 feet) possible, but no more.
Current Status UPPER FLOOR
So far, I have only worked roughly on this level since I am still not satisfied with the ground floor layout. I have attached a rough draft for the three children’s rooms and the bathroom.
It is important to note: at this level, there are additional supports branching off from the mentioned pillars, running diagonally from the floor to the ceiling toward the north, which cannot be removed either. In my opinion, these should be incorporated into the walls. A door could be installed at the outer edge of such a wall. But we have not reached that point yet...
Information about the FLOOR PLAN PLANNING:
As far as I can judge, not all details (such as floor area ratio, gross floor area ratio, etc.) are relevant for this existing building construction. I will provide these as far as possible and will do my best to answer questions from the community.
From my side GENERAL COMMENTS:
I welcome any and all constructive feedback and will not be disappointed if it challenges my views on how everything should look. At this stage, any aspect or wall can still be changed. I’m looking forward to it.
==========================================================
Development Plan / Restrictions
Size of the property: 3.5 hectares (8.6 acres, including 2 hectares (5 acres) of pasture)
Slope: none
Number of floors: 2
Roof type: gable roof with 50-degree pitch, barn approx. 12 meters (39 feet) high
Style: estate style
Orientation: conversion on the south side
Maximum height / limits: unknown
Other requirements: According to the building authority, the drafts can be realized without problems.
Client Requirements
Style, roof type, building type: single-family home on an estate (conversion of existing building)
Floors: ground floor + upper floor (2 full floors) + option to convert the attic
Number of people, ages: 5 people: 46, 37, 7, 5, 3
Space requirements ground floor, upper floor: 200 square meters (2150 square feet) +
Office usage, home office?: office currently not planned, if possible with a single workspace
Guests per year: 10
Open or closed architecture: open, but living & dining area should not be too open
Conservative or modern construction: rather modern
Open kitchen, kitchen island: open kitchen, kitchen island
Number of dining seats: at least 6
Fireplace: yes, in the living-dining room, preferably on an exterior wall
Music / stereo wall: no
Balcony, roof terrace: no, only a terrace facing the garden—preferably with a terrace door
Garage, carport: no, parking spaces available
Vegetable garden, greenhouse: no
Preferred heating technology: connected to the main house’s heating, so not relevant
House design
Designer: own design
What do you particularly like? Why?:
- We really like the ground floor with its large south-facing windows; it’s necessary to bring light into the barn’s interior and the far corners of the living room
- The access to the parents’ area is not directly from the hallway. Even though it costs space, I like it this way.
What do you dislike? Why?:
- I am very undecided about how to fit a bathroom on the ground floor.
- The big question is whether the living room should extend to the rear wall. I think there's still light there, but I don’t quite know how to best use the space. Or should a staircase be placed behind it?
- The access to the living room is unclear to me. On one hand, we prefer it to be closed off; on the other, keeping the option to open it up sounds interesting—possibly with a sliding door.
- We like seeing the staircase from the entrance (rather than hiding it in a dark corner).
If you had to give up on some details or features,
-Could you give up on: bathtub in the bathroom next to the parents’ bedroom; a shower is sufficient
-Cannot give up: office (could also be located in the attic; currently, there are alternatives in the main house)
==========================================================
ESTATE – the photo shows the barn, overall dimensions 30 meters (98 feet) long, 20 meters (66 feet) wide – so only the southwest side can be converted.
PRELIMINARY DESIGNS – OPEN CONCEPT Drafts 21A + 21B
I have been quietly following the discussions for some time now and am curious to share the first drafts of our house construction project—to see what feedback I get. I can hardly imagine that anyone outside of this project can really understand it, but I will do my best to make the introduction as clear and informative as possible.
Background:
About two years ago, my family (wife, three children aged 7, 5, and 3), my sister-in-law, and my parents-in-law moved to an estate near Oldenburg. The estate measures about 3.5 hectares (including 2 hectares (5 acres) of pasture for my sister-in-law’s horses). Over the past few years, we have been almost daily occupied with restoring the estate and maintaining the surrounding land and large areas.
Current Status GROUND FLOOR
Together with a friend (a carpenter and exhibition builder), I started planning the conversion of the barn belonging to the estate to create an apartment for my family. However, most of the work comes from me; my friend only gave me some initial support and is not further involved in the project. The usable footprint is predetermined because part of the barn must remain storage space for equipment, etc. We have already made several drafts, and I would like to share what I consider the best ones here. Overall, we are quite satisfied with the ground floor approach, but the lighting situation is particularly challenging since windows can only be placed on one side—as only the south side of the barn can be converted. The plan is to include a living-dining-kitchen area with a fireplace, staircase, utility room, master bedroom with walk-in closet, and a full bathroom preferably with a bathtub.
An important note: two pillars (30x30cm (12x12 inches)) run from the floor all the way to the roof. These cannot be altered for structural reasons and also affect the layout of the upper floor, including room arrangements and staircase positioning. We have fixed the south side width at 14–15 meters (46–49 feet), with a maximum of 16 meters (52 feet) possible, but no more.
Current Status UPPER FLOOR
So far, I have only worked roughly on this level since I am still not satisfied with the ground floor layout. I have attached a rough draft for the three children’s rooms and the bathroom.
It is important to note: at this level, there are additional supports branching off from the mentioned pillars, running diagonally from the floor to the ceiling toward the north, which cannot be removed either. In my opinion, these should be incorporated into the walls. A door could be installed at the outer edge of such a wall. But we have not reached that point yet...
Information about the FLOOR PLAN PLANNING:
As far as I can judge, not all details (such as floor area ratio, gross floor area ratio, etc.) are relevant for this existing building construction. I will provide these as far as possible and will do my best to answer questions from the community.
From my side GENERAL COMMENTS:
I welcome any and all constructive feedback and will not be disappointed if it challenges my views on how everything should look. At this stage, any aspect or wall can still be changed. I’m looking forward to it.
==========================================================
Development Plan / Restrictions
Size of the property: 3.5 hectares (8.6 acres, including 2 hectares (5 acres) of pasture)
Slope: none
Number of floors: 2
Roof type: gable roof with 50-degree pitch, barn approx. 12 meters (39 feet) high
Style: estate style
Orientation: conversion on the south side
Maximum height / limits: unknown
Other requirements: According to the building authority, the drafts can be realized without problems.
Client Requirements
Style, roof type, building type: single-family home on an estate (conversion of existing building)
Floors: ground floor + upper floor (2 full floors) + option to convert the attic
Number of people, ages: 5 people: 46, 37, 7, 5, 3
Space requirements ground floor, upper floor: 200 square meters (2150 square feet) +
Office usage, home office?: office currently not planned, if possible with a single workspace
Guests per year: 10
Open or closed architecture: open, but living & dining area should not be too open
Conservative or modern construction: rather modern
Open kitchen, kitchen island: open kitchen, kitchen island
Number of dining seats: at least 6
Fireplace: yes, in the living-dining room, preferably on an exterior wall
Music / stereo wall: no
Balcony, roof terrace: no, only a terrace facing the garden—preferably with a terrace door
Garage, carport: no, parking spaces available
Vegetable garden, greenhouse: no
Preferred heating technology: connected to the main house’s heating, so not relevant
House design
Designer: own design
What do you particularly like? Why?:
- We really like the ground floor with its large south-facing windows; it’s necessary to bring light into the barn’s interior and the far corners of the living room
- The access to the parents’ area is not directly from the hallway. Even though it costs space, I like it this way.
What do you dislike? Why?:
- I am very undecided about how to fit a bathroom on the ground floor.
- The big question is whether the living room should extend to the rear wall. I think there's still light there, but I don’t quite know how to best use the space. Or should a staircase be placed behind it?
- The access to the living room is unclear to me. On one hand, we prefer it to be closed off; on the other, keeping the option to open it up sounds interesting—possibly with a sliding door.
- We like seeing the staircase from the entrance (rather than hiding it in a dark corner).
If you had to give up on some details or features,
-Could you give up on: bathtub in the bathroom next to the parents’ bedroom; a shower is sufficient
-Cannot give up: office (could also be located in the attic; currently, there are alternatives in the main house)
==========================================================
ESTATE – the photo shows the barn, overall dimensions 30 meters (98 feet) long, 20 meters (66 feet) wide – so only the southwest side can be converted.
PRELIMINARY DESIGNS – OPEN CONCEPT Drafts 21A + 21B
icandoit schrieb:
Your installed shell structure can support the roof’s load-bearing forces. At what height is the purlin shown in the picture?
To me, the support columns would serve more as a design element. Of course, you shouldn’t place a door directly in front of one.I would need a precise measurement to determine the exact position of the purlin. I thought it runs along the knee wall, but that’s just a layman’s assumption. 😉
I will clarify this...
I was thinking similarly about the support columns, but leaving them freestanding also takes up space in the attic.
ypg schrieb:
What is the roof pitch? Is 50 degrees correct?
P.S.: The furniture is just a placeholder... so not the nicest. I also chose a fairly large staircase to avoid complications later on.The roof pitch is 45 degrees. The look of the furniture is understandably secondary. 🙂
I would like to take another close look at the design. I really like many aspects and it’s great to rethink some points, for example:
- Kitchen on the west side – why not. I had actually considered the side where the sofa is now, to possibly have a pantry.
- Large door to the open living area: very good, and placing it below the supporting pillar: also very good – a great approach!
- Master suite going all the way to the "north": excellent input, thanks. The layout of the elements is also well thought out. Dressing room in the darkest corner: clever idea!
- Guest bathroom: good location, in combination with that staircase.
- Bathroom: light strips or windows are interesting, that could work.
What I noticed quickly (though not thoroughly thought through yet) are the following points, off the cuff:
- Bathroom: a window on the south side would be great for direct light. I also understand the limited space there. As mentioned, alternatively behind the bedroom is also conceivable.
- Entrance area: seems quite wide; it could be narrower and might open up different possibilities (like for the bathroom).
- Staircase: I’m not so sure about a spiral staircase. It can look great, of course. Personally, I prefer stairs where the first steps are extra wide and inviting. Usually these are straight or with a quarter turn or a small landing.
- Living area in the open plan space: I’m not sure if it will be too tight with the sofa, possibly TV and fireplace – but it could also work.
I think it’s a really great approach, and the points I noted that don’t immediately appeal to me aren’t really criticisms, but rather things I hadn’t considered before. I need to reflect on them further.
Thanks again. Really great work.
This is just meant to give a rough idea of how others think.
About the upper floor: Somehow I suspected this... if the pitch is really 45 degrees, from the outside it actually looks even less.
I will write something about the attic at the end.
Basically: the kitchen needs more light, the relaxation area needs very little light.
The pantry is in the cabinets opposite the stairs but could also be moved to the kitchen corner. That was my first idea...
Well, daylight needs to be able to spread everywhere.
The house is too deep...
... and the south side is too valuable not to be used for living rooms.
I can switch that tomorrow so you can see the difference.
No, it had to be that way because of the stairs. You need a path or hallway past the stairs to reach the guest toilet.
You can’t place all rooms facing south!
Many corners and irregular walls catch the light and prevent it from spreading further.
A barn conversion is a compromise.
A house with windows only on the south side means many compromises.
The depth of the barn means many compromises.
You need to be aware that you are making A LOT OF COMPROMISES to the power of three if you want to keep the barn as you imagine with the south wing.
The fundamental problem on the upper floor:
Your dashed line, the 2-meter line, which is mirrored on the other side, shows about 40 square meters of space that is over 2 meters tall, in the middle of the house (ridge).
If the roof pitch is even less (I estimate 38 degrees), then this becomes more like a one- to two-meter-wide strip across the whole width. And that’s without any beams or rafters that support the roof structure everywhere.
The staircase MUST come out there in the middle; the rooms upstairs have a standing strip and otherwise are tight spaces...
You will hardly have any usable or legally allowed living area according to the building code. Having a second escape route is just a dream.
Basically, on the south side you will either need many dormers or one long continuous dormer. Then you can fit three children's rooms there. On the north side, then bathroom, office, and storage room.
That’s why the main wall, which separates the staircase from the living space, must be almost up to the beam, since there is also a wall up there. That shrinks the open living space...
I will approach the bathroom layout again tomorrow... I already have an idea 😉
About the upper floor: Somehow I suspected this... if the pitch is really 45 degrees, from the outside it actually looks even less.
I will write something about the attic at the end.
derclaus schrieb:
I was also thinking about the side where the couch is now, maybe to have a pantry.
Basically: the kitchen needs more light, the relaxation area needs very little light.
The pantry is in the cabinets opposite the stairs but could also be moved to the kitchen corner. That was my first idea...
derclaus schrieb:
Large door to the open living space: very good; below the support column: also very good – a great approach!
Well, daylight needs to be able to spread everywhere.
derclaus schrieb:
Bathroom: light strips or windows are interesting, could be done like that.
The house is too deep...
derclaus schrieb:
Bathroom: would be great on the south side with a direct window. But I also understand the lack of space there.
... and the south side is too valuable not to be used for living rooms.
I can switch that tomorrow so you can see the difference.
derclaus schrieb:
Entrance area: seems designed very wide, it could be narrower.
No, it had to be that way because of the stairs. You need a path or hallway past the stairs to reach the guest toilet.
derclaus schrieb:
Stairs: I'm not so sure about a spiral staircase.
derclaus schrieb:
Living room in the open plan area: I don't know if it will be too tight with the couch,
You can’t place all rooms facing south!
Many corners and irregular walls catch the light and prevent it from spreading further.
A barn conversion is a compromise.
A house with windows only on the south side means many compromises.
The depth of the barn means many compromises.
You need to be aware that you are making A LOT OF COMPROMISES to the power of three if you want to keep the barn as you imagine with the south wing.
The fundamental problem on the upper floor:
Your dashed line, the 2-meter line, which is mirrored on the other side, shows about 40 square meters of space that is over 2 meters tall, in the middle of the house (ridge).
If the roof pitch is even less (I estimate 38 degrees), then this becomes more like a one- to two-meter-wide strip across the whole width. And that’s without any beams or rafters that support the roof structure everywhere.
The staircase MUST come out there in the middle; the rooms upstairs have a standing strip and otherwise are tight spaces...
You will hardly have any usable or legally allowed living area according to the building code. Having a second escape route is just a dream.
Basically, on the south side you will either need many dormers or one long continuous dormer. Then you can fit three children's rooms there. On the north side, then bathroom, office, and storage room.
That’s why the main wall, which separates the staircase from the living space, must be almost up to the beam, since there is also a wall up there. That shrinks the open living space...
I will approach the bathroom layout again tomorrow... I already have an idea 😉
ypg schrieb:
This is just meant to show how other minds think.Great. Thanks. That helps a lot. Especially as a layperson, you tend to believe you can somehow find a solution for the facts you emphasized, in order to fulfill all wishes after all. But as you write: you have to live with and accept those compromises!
ypg schrieb:
The pantry is in the cupboards opposite the stairs, but it could also be moved into the kitchen corner.I understand. That could be possible, but it would probably have to be quite small. However, it takes up space in the open-plan area again, and a kitchen with more storage provides a good alternative solution.
ypg schrieb:
You can’t get all rooms facing south!Of course. With the remark “too tight with the sofa” I didn’t mean that this room should be moved to face south. It was more about the fact that this room measures just under 3.20m (10.5 ft) wide, and I have never been quite sure if that size is easy to use effectively. But a sofa fits in, and a TV cabinet and fireplace are also possible.
ypg schrieb:
No, the staircase had to be designed that way. You need a pathway or hallway past the stairs to reach the guest bathroom.I find this part very interesting, which is why I quoted it separately, as I consider it quite important.
Just to say upfront, all of this makes sense. The 3m (10 feet) seemed quite wide at first glance. I also find your positioning of the stairs logical—especially since, in addition to the walk-in closet, the utility/laundry room is placed in the darker, deeper part of the floor plan.
Question regarding this:
I assume this staircase layout (a) not only saves space but also (b) provides good access to the upper floor rooms from the landing. I had thought it might be possible, for example, to install a straight staircase instead. Without drafting it on paper, I assumed such a narrow staircase would provide good access to rooms on both the left and right upstairs—or am I mistaken (because the stair might then end too far north)?
Something else puzzling me is an additional point or idea:
Assuming the upper floor has three bedrooms and one bathroom distributed across 16m (52 feet) in width—this results in about 4m (13 feet) per room including walls (16/4). Is it unreasonable to consider installing a skylight that could bring natural light into the upper floor hallway? Because here, another compromise seems to be emerging: the hallway upstairs will likely remain quite dark...
PS: To be clear, I have no idealized vision of the house. Any kind of staircase can be attractive in principle; a bathroom can also be positioned internally; and a pantry is not essential. Many things here boil down to compromise—thanks for the input from you and everyone involved!
derclaus schrieb:
It was more about the fact that this room measures just under 3.20 meters (10.5 feet) wide Mine is, I believe, about 4 meters (13 feet)...
derclaus schrieb:
I assume that this staircase shape (a) is not only a space-saving option but also (b) allows good access to the upper rooms through the landing. My staircase is a showy large stair. I thought the house could handle it until I started planning the upper floor. The staircase needs a precise placement at the top so that three rooms can be aligned on the south side upstairs. Because: the southwest room needs access.
derclaus schrieb:
Because here another compromise seems to be developing: the landing on the upper floor will mostly be in the dark... That’s the lesser evil: either two double casement windows above the staircase/landing or a small void that still directs southern sunlight upstairs. You definitely have unused space in the attic level, so you can open the knee wall to the ground floor as well.
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