ᐅ Exotic combination: wood pellets plus exhaust air heat pump?
Created on: 31 Jul 2020 21:44
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RockyFranco
Hello,
First of all, thank you for providing a platform for questions like this.
I have the following issue that I’m trying to solve and hope to get some tips from the experts here.
I’m interested in a house but haven’t bought it yet.
- Viebrockhaus, so-called 3-liter house, haha. Built in 2000
- Very good quality in terms of bathrooms, floors, and materials
- Two upper floors totaling 200sqm (2,150 sq ft) with a mansard roof and a fully finished basement including an office of about 90sqm (970 sq ft)
- Now here’s the thing, hold on to your hats: the electricity bills are easily around 400€ per month, and depending on the year they use between 10,000–12,000 kWh annually. All electric, mind you. For two people!
- Radiators throughout the house. No underfloor heating! Two fireplaces, but their chimneys are located exactly opposite the technical room. They do have flaps to the hallway as well.
- Heating system: 2 x exhaust air heat pumps, Nibe Fighter 600 or 610, for the living area and one Nibe Fighter 315 for the basement/office.
- Central exhaust ventilation system from relevant rooms, with decentralized air supply openings in every room.
Clearly, the system is so inefficient that it probably runs on electric heating cartridges 90% of the time. Plus, the ventilation has to be on; otherwise, there is no efficiency at all.
I want to reduce these high costs. I’ve read that you can tweak the system with timers and turning ventilation mostly off, or trick the temperature sensors, etc. But I think all that is neither effective nor practical.
IDEA:
- Since there is LOTS of space in the technical room in the basement, including a large storage area, I’m considering installing a suitable wood pellet boiler. The chimney draft is external. The appearance doesn’t bother me.
- Combined with a modern exhaust air heat pump like the Nibe F135, which would only run occasionally.
To keep the ventilation going—I’m afraid of mold otherwise—the house was very dry and didn’t feel stuffy.
The viewing was on a 35°C (95°F) day, so it was blazing hot inside, obviously because warm air is drawn in.
What do you think about this, or is it nonsense? Would solar thermal for hot water be better? I have also thought about keeping the old Nibe just to run the ventilation function. What I don’t want is to break up 200sqm (2,150 sq ft) of flooring to install underfloor heating.
That rules out oil/gas/air-source/geothermal heat pumps.
I have also considered photovoltaic panels to cover the huge electricity costs, but that would be like casting pearls before swine and still wouldn’t be enough.
Maybe someone here has another tip.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
Frank
First of all, thank you for providing a platform for questions like this.
I have the following issue that I’m trying to solve and hope to get some tips from the experts here.
I’m interested in a house but haven’t bought it yet.
- Viebrockhaus, so-called 3-liter house, haha. Built in 2000
- Very good quality in terms of bathrooms, floors, and materials
- Two upper floors totaling 200sqm (2,150 sq ft) with a mansard roof and a fully finished basement including an office of about 90sqm (970 sq ft)
- Now here’s the thing, hold on to your hats: the electricity bills are easily around 400€ per month, and depending on the year they use between 10,000–12,000 kWh annually. All electric, mind you. For two people!
- Radiators throughout the house. No underfloor heating! Two fireplaces, but their chimneys are located exactly opposite the technical room. They do have flaps to the hallway as well.
- Heating system: 2 x exhaust air heat pumps, Nibe Fighter 600 or 610, for the living area and one Nibe Fighter 315 for the basement/office.
- Central exhaust ventilation system from relevant rooms, with decentralized air supply openings in every room.
Clearly, the system is so inefficient that it probably runs on electric heating cartridges 90% of the time. Plus, the ventilation has to be on; otherwise, there is no efficiency at all.
I want to reduce these high costs. I’ve read that you can tweak the system with timers and turning ventilation mostly off, or trick the temperature sensors, etc. But I think all that is neither effective nor practical.
IDEA:
- Since there is LOTS of space in the technical room in the basement, including a large storage area, I’m considering installing a suitable wood pellet boiler. The chimney draft is external. The appearance doesn’t bother me.
- Combined with a modern exhaust air heat pump like the Nibe F135, which would only run occasionally.
To keep the ventilation going—I’m afraid of mold otherwise—the house was very dry and didn’t feel stuffy.
The viewing was on a 35°C (95°F) day, so it was blazing hot inside, obviously because warm air is drawn in.
What do you think about this, or is it nonsense? Would solar thermal for hot water be better? I have also thought about keeping the old Nibe just to run the ventilation function. What I don’t want is to break up 200sqm (2,150 sq ft) of flooring to install underfloor heating.
That rules out oil/gas/air-source/geothermal heat pumps.
I have also considered photovoltaic panels to cover the huge electricity costs, but that would be like casting pearls before swine and still wouldn’t be enough.
Maybe someone here has another tip.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
Frank
Daniel-Sp schrieb:
My first thought is: at what heating water temperature are the current radiators operating? Only with this information can further planning be done. This info is even more valuable than the calculated heating load since you don’t want to replace the radiators.You are on the right track, but the real question from that perspective is: how much can the supply temperature be lowered without compromising comfort?
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RockyFranco2 Aug 2020 14:29nordanney schrieb:
But installing a very expensive new heating system? Radiators are cheap, and replacing them is the most affordable part. You can even do it yourself with just basic skills. Tassimat schrieb:
Nice radiators can also be costly.
I would clearly recommend gas here.
Depending on insulation and required heating load, a standard heat pump could also work.
Anyway, this is definitely a case for a professional energy consultant or a skilled installer who knows how to calculate everything properly. Okay, to summarize, gas is favored. I’ll try to find out/post as much as possible about the insulation and load values.
I actually have two left hands! Just kidding, I’m quite good with technical stuff. A hundred years ago, I even installed radiators for a company as a holiday job, soldering fittings, etc.
What does a “modern” radiator usually cost?
T
T_im_Norden2 Aug 2020 15:30These houses apparently have a poor reputation regarding insulation and heating. I would be very cautious about expecting improvements without major renovation work. This should definitely be taken into account when considering the purchase price of the house.
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nordanney2 Aug 2020 15:41RockyFranco schrieb:
how much does a "modern" radiator cost?A few hundred euros for good quality flat radiators. For example, a Buderus 900 x 2,300 mm (35 x 90 inches) radiator with a depth of 157 mm (6 inches) costs around 460 euros. It still provides almost 4,000 watts of output at 55/45 degrees Celsius (131/113 degrees Fahrenheit) with a room temperature of 20 degrees Celsius (68 degrees Fahrenheit). Lower supply temperatures result in less output.
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RockyFranco2 Aug 2020 16:07T_im_Norden schrieb:
These houses apparently have a bad reputation regarding insulation and heating.
I would be very cautious about whether anything can be improved without major renovation work.
This should definitely be taken into account when considering the purchase price of the house. For heaven’s sake, I don’t want to accuse the company V., but if you know more about these construction years, please share, also by private message.
It all really started back then with the whole "energy transition" and "new concepts." The keyword is beautiful old buildings being "senselessly" insulated, causing mold inside and the need for ventilation. Those beautiful wooden windows should have been kept...
The Viebrock house is a kind of prefabricated solid construction, right? Like segments on the ground floor? The upper floor, which I am focusing on, is supposedly wood frame construction, externally also clad in facing brick. Roof structure, outside, and inside all look very high quality. I have rarely seen such good condition for a building of this age.
The only thing is that you can’t find much online about the wall construction, hardly any photos. How thick is the facing brick, and how thick is the insulation then? (Any harmful substances?!) Interior cladding?
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T_im_Norden2 Aug 2020 16:16Try searching for V.... 1, 2, 3 liter houses, there are many posts on that topic.
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