ᐅ Construction supervision by an independent expert?

Don’t get me wrong – if I had seen that everything was going according to plan and I didn’t constantly have to step in because things are moving so slowly again, it wouldn’t be a problem.
But I’m now handling the specifications with the electrician myself (I want to do some of the work myself, like the bus system), and I’m usually present when the plumber is on site, while the architect often isn’t.
Then he’s absent when there are important appointments directly at the construction site.
It feels like he has more important things to do, and that makes me feel sorry about paying these amounts.

We’ll see how things develop.

Today, the excavation work started.

Hello,

Häuslebauer40 schrieb:
.... but a total of 14,000 EUR seems to me disproportionate to the services provided for construction supervision.

How do you come to that conclusion?

Häuslebauer40 schrieb:
Construction expert, with all due respect to the civil engineers and other professionals in this field, in my opinion a total of 14,000 euros is not in any way proportional to the effort involved in construction supervision.

Correct! Especially in this area, the HOAI is a relic of the past (preservation of existing rights) and clearly needs reform! In other countries, there is no HOAI, yet architects often earn more than in Germany.
Anyone who believes that architectural services for a nationwide general contractor / main contractor are billed according to HOAI is dreaming a fantastic dream.

Best regards.

E.Curb schrieb:
Hello,

how do you come to that conclusion?

Well, how many hours does an architect or structural engineer actually spend on overseeing the construction of a single-family house?

If I estimate simply and pragmatically, based on a typical construction period of six months (which is common nowadays), I arrive at the following effort (which I think is already generously calculated):

One site visit per week including travel time = 26 weeks × 2 hours = 52 hours

On-site inspections for each partial acceptance and the final handover, assuming 5 × 4 hours = 20 hours

That adds up to 72 hours. If we then add about 30 hours of office work, the total is 102 hours, which, based on a fee of 14,000 EUR, corresponds to an hourly rate of around 137 EUR. I find that a bit too high.

Hello €uro,

€uro schrieb:
Especially in this area, the HOAI is a relic of the past (protection of vested rights) and clearly in need of reform! In other countries, there is no HOAI, yet architects sometimes earn more than in Germany

Dear forum colleague – there are days when I wonder if you happen to be involved with the topic of this thread and are very frustrated about it, or if you just want to stir things up a bit.

The HOAI is not about “protection of vested rights” – it is, among a few other things, something that guarantees us all a reliable and therefore predictable figure. And with this reliability, it also provides the basis for any necessary claims for damages. By the way, I am little to not at all interested if architects “elsewhere” earn more or less, since I know that it is also much more difficult “elsewhere” to hold an architect responsible for their poor work – if they even deliver it.

Architects usually employ – at least the good ones among them – a whole team of staff who expect to have their salaries in their accounts on time every month. Additionally, architects are not allowed to advertise their services. Nevertheless, they must constantly keep up to date with technology, continuously buy new software, printers, plotters, and so on. The latest “trend” is the 3D visualization, which is very popular with clients – all of this costs money, and not a small amount either.

I know that you are very committed to your MEP (mechanical, electrical, and plumbing) planning, and I also know that your billing is far below what your “colleagues” charge for their work. The question is, how long can you maintain that? So far, you probably are at most covering the costs for an office and yourself. If your workload steadily increases – which I sincerely wish for you – you will be forced to hire staff, and with that your overhead will approach the “normal” amounts that are charged (and must be charged) in your sector for MEP planning. What happens if a “new” €uro then undercuts your prices?

€uro schrieb:
Those who believe that architectural services are invoiced according to HOAI for a nationwide general contractor (GC) or general subcontractor (GS) are dreaming a fantastic dream

That is not the topic Stefanoi is addressing and is a completely different matter. These architects are either permanently employed or work – similar to retired tax advisors – with a draftsman who develops the basic floor plans and they only sign off on them.

I can hardly describe how much this “stingy is cool” mentality annoys me! First, wanting to pay (almost) nothing upfront and then complaining when “only” the actual equivalent of (almost) nothing is ready to move into – if at all. I would like to see how these users would react if their employer told them their work was overpriced... oh, silly me – now I remember, I experience that every year when, for example, public transport is completely disrupted again and presumably the right to a wage increase is fought over on the backs of those who earn the salary...

Just my two cents...

Häuslebauer40 schrieb:
So how many hours does an architect / structural engineer spend on the complete supervision of a single-family house construction?

If I calculate it roughly and pragmatically, based on a 6-month construction period, which should be common today, I come to the following effort (already generously estimated in my opinion):

On-site visit once a week including travel time = 26 weeks x 2 hours = 52 hours

On-site appointments for each partial acceptance and final acceptance, assuming 5 = 5 x 4 hours = 20 hours

That gives me 72 hours. Let’s add 30 hours of office work, that makes 102, which at €14,000 would correspond to an hourly rate of roughly €137. Too much, in my opinion.

Well, that’s what you might call a simplistic calculation. Do you know what is included in service phase 8 – construction supervision?

Service Phase 8: Construction Supervision

a) Monitoring the execution of the project for compliance with the building permit or approval, the construction plans, and the service specifications, as well as the generally accepted technical standards and relevant regulations

b) Monitoring the execution of structural elements according to § 50 paragraph 2 numbers 1 and 2 for compliance with structural safety verification

c) Coordinating the specialists involved in construction supervision

d) Supervision and detailed correction of precast elements

e) Creating and monitoring a schedule (bar chart)

f) Keeping a construction logbook

g) Joint measurement with the construction contractors

h) Acceptance of construction services with the involvement of other planners and construction supervisors, identifying defects

i) Invoice verification

j) Determination of costs according to DIN 276 or the residential property calculation law

k) Application for official inspections and participation therein

l) Handover of the completed building including compilation and delivery of required documents, for example operating manuals, test protocols

m) Listing of limitation periods for claims regarding defects

n) Monitoring the rectification of defects identified during acceptance of construction services

o) Cost control by checking the service invoices of the contractors against the contract prices and cost estimates

Source: HOAI.de

There is a lot of work behind this. And last but not least: RESPONSIBILITY! So please don’t only calculate the hours you see the architect.

Best regards