ᐅ Underfloor heating in the children's room? Some rooms planned without underfloor heating? Removing the air-to-water heat pump?
Created on: 18 Dec 2019 21:20
L
ludwig88sta
Hello everyone,
I'll briefly introduce the topic:
We are planning a two-story single-family house of about 180 sqm (1,940 sq ft) with a basement, built with Poroton 42cm (16.5 inches) bricks and as much photovoltaic system as possible on the roof. Since we want to insulate well not only with the bricks but also with the windows, the base slab, the basement, etc., we are considering an air-to-water heat pump (following the motto "a well-insulated house doesn’t need a huge heating system").
Now we are wondering whether we should install underfloor heating in the bedroom or children’s rooms at all, because it is said to be slow to react and can cause uncomfortable temperatures in summer, which again leads to poor sleep. Also, different temperatures are needed in sleeping areas than in living areas. Of course, children’s rooms are tricky since they are used for both activities in the afternoon and for sleeping at night.
We want to install underfloor heating in the kitchen/dining area, living room, and of course the bathroom. Can you plan for two different supply temperatures for the underfloor heating (one warmer for kitchen/dining, living room, bathroom, study and one cooler for bedrooms and kids’ rooms)? What about rooms like the hobby room or guest room? My wife often makes wreaths or works on crafts in the hobby room, so it definitely does not need to be as warm as the living room. The guest room we would not want to heat throughout the entire heating season, but only when guests are actually staying.
However, I read that underfloor heating works best when water is circulated continuously? What is recommended for guest rooms or hobby rooms? The quickest way to heat them would probably be with conventional radiators rather than underfloor heating? But what I have read so far suggests that air-to-water heat pumps may not be ideal for that. Should we consider a gas boiler instead (connection available on the property)? Or is it possible to operate underfloor heating with an air-to-water heat pump with different supply temperature circuits (1) living areas 2) sleeping areas 3) rooms heated only as needed)?
This sentence made me doubt:
I understand this to mean that the whole house should be heated with one supply temperature, ideally all through underfloor heating. Of course, with multiple circuits since each circuit should not exceed 80/100 meters (260/330 feet) in length (pressure loss, etc.). But all with the same supply temperature, otherwise that would be individual room control again, which should not be installed.
I hope you can shed some light on this.
Underfloor heating is very important to my wife, so we won’t avoid it. The question is what we do with the hobby room, which needs much less heating (or also the bedrooms and kids’ rooms?), and the guest room, which is heated much less often. Is that even possible with underfloor heating and an air-to-water heat pump?
Have a great evening and enjoy the upcoming pre-Christmas season.
I’m really impressed by the many helpful people here who support future homeowners like me, who don’t just go to a general contractor and say “Do it and give me the keys sometime, I don’t care about the details,” but who want to dive into all the different trades involved. At the same time, it can be overwhelming and confusing due to the huge amount of information available online, especially with little prior experience.
I'll briefly introduce the topic:
We are planning a two-story single-family house of about 180 sqm (1,940 sq ft) with a basement, built with Poroton 42cm (16.5 inches) bricks and as much photovoltaic system as possible on the roof. Since we want to insulate well not only with the bricks but also with the windows, the base slab, the basement, etc., we are considering an air-to-water heat pump (following the motto "a well-insulated house doesn’t need a huge heating system").
Now we are wondering whether we should install underfloor heating in the bedroom or children’s rooms at all, because it is said to be slow to react and can cause uncomfortable temperatures in summer, which again leads to poor sleep. Also, different temperatures are needed in sleeping areas than in living areas. Of course, children’s rooms are tricky since they are used for both activities in the afternoon and for sleeping at night.
We want to install underfloor heating in the kitchen/dining area, living room, and of course the bathroom. Can you plan for two different supply temperatures for the underfloor heating (one warmer for kitchen/dining, living room, bathroom, study and one cooler for bedrooms and kids’ rooms)? What about rooms like the hobby room or guest room? My wife often makes wreaths or works on crafts in the hobby room, so it definitely does not need to be as warm as the living room. The guest room we would not want to heat throughout the entire heating season, but only when guests are actually staying.
However, I read that underfloor heating works best when water is circulated continuously? What is recommended for guest rooms or hobby rooms? The quickest way to heat them would probably be with conventional radiators rather than underfloor heating? But what I have read so far suggests that air-to-water heat pumps may not be ideal for that. Should we consider a gas boiler instead (connection available on the property)? Or is it possible to operate underfloor heating with an air-to-water heat pump with different supply temperature circuits (1) living areas 2) sleeping areas 3) rooms heated only as needed)?
This sentence made me doubt:
"To ensure optimal operation of the heat pump, underfloor heating should not have individual room control installed."(Source: Bundesverband Flächenheizung e.V.)
I understand this to mean that the whole house should be heated with one supply temperature, ideally all through underfloor heating. Of course, with multiple circuits since each circuit should not exceed 80/100 meters (260/330 feet) in length (pressure loss, etc.). But all with the same supply temperature, otherwise that would be individual room control again, which should not be installed.
I hope you can shed some light on this.
Underfloor heating is very important to my wife, so we won’t avoid it. The question is what we do with the hobby room, which needs much less heating (or also the bedrooms and kids’ rooms?), and the guest room, which is heated much less often. Is that even possible with underfloor heating and an air-to-water heat pump?
Have a great evening and enjoy the upcoming pre-Christmas season.
I’m really impressed by the many helpful people here who support future homeowners like me, who don’t just go to a general contractor and say “Do it and give me the keys sometime, I don’t care about the details,” but who want to dive into all the different trades involved. At the same time, it can be overwhelming and confusing due to the huge amount of information available online, especially with little prior experience.
L
ludwig88sta19 Dec 2019 10:29@fragg You could theoretically have insulated your pantry from the inside using thin insulation panels. In that case, you would insulate it to protect from the warmth of the adjacent rooms instead of the usual approach of insulating against cold from outside.
Similarly, in an insulated basement, you can keep a pantry cooler by maximizing contact with the exterior walls, right?
@Tego12
Just as an example after 20 seconds of DuckDuckGo searching:
Similarly, in an insulated basement, you can keep a pantry cooler by maximizing contact with the exterior walls, right?
@Tego12
Just as an example after 20 seconds of DuckDuckGo searching:
In principle, many experts recommend bedroom temperatures between 16 and 18 degrees Celsius (61 and 64 degrees Fahrenheit). Sleep specialist Geisler prefers to be cautious with fixed numbers. "The ideal room temperature is one at which you neither sweat nor feel cold," he says. "What exact temperature this is varies individually and also depends on factors like bedding and sleepwear."
ludwig88sta schrieb:
@fragg You could theoretically insulate your pantry from the inside with thin insulation boards, right? In that case, insulating "against the heat from other rooms" instead of the usual "against cold from outside."
Similarly, you can keep a pantry cooler in an insulated basement by having as much contact with the exterior walls as possible, can’t you?
@Tego12
just as an example after 20 seconds of DuckDuckGoingYes, you could. But that’s a bad idea and nobody does it. If you need temperature differences of 7 degrees between different rooms to be happy, then only an old building will work. The people here in the forum have implied it, but this time I’ll be direct: it won’t work and it’s a bad solution.
About sleeping: try lying naked without a blanket in a 35°C (95°F) room. Very refreshing.
Since August 3, 2018, we have maintained a constant 21°C (70°F) in the bedroom every day of the year. We have banned thick winter blankets from the bedroom, but also the thin summer sheets.
We have a thermostat in each room. In the children's bedrooms, the setting is on level 4 (out of 6). It is noticeably warmer there (probably only about 2 degrees Celsius (3.6°F), but it feels like more) than in the hallway, for example. The bedroom is "not" heated. In the evening, I open the window briefly to cool it down to around 17 degrees Celsius (63°F) so my daughter can fall asleep more easily in her bedside crib. After about two hours, the temperature rises again to 19–20 degrees Celsius (66–68°F). I don’t find the heating system slow at all. Ours actually reacts quite quickly to sudden cold. However, as a backup, we will add a wood stove next year that can really warm the house when we feel chilly.
L
ludwig88sta19 Dec 2019 10:54Dr Hix schrieb:
The issue is usually with the system itself. To save money, it is often undersized, resulting in a disappointing 100 mm (4 inches) plate valve connected to one or two 75 mm (3 inches) pipes in a two-person bedroom. By the time the required air volumes arrive, the users have long since turned down the central unit out of frustration to avoid flow noise. System effect = 0.So, with a properly sized ventilation system and ideally a ground loop heat pump using a trench collector, individual rooms should be able to be effectively "cooled" if needed?
@Evolith you also have underfloor heating, practically speaking, with controlled room temperature regulation (ERR)? Also a ventilation system that cools too little because you open the window or without?
"The bedroom is not heated." You have already installed the underfloor heating there but set very low temperatures (hydraulic balancing)?
Dr Hix schrieb:
It is usually due to the system itself. To save money, it is often sized far too small, resulting in a disappointing 100mm (4 inches) plate valve connected to one or two 75mm (3 inches) pipes in a two-person bedroom. Before the required air volumes can be delivered, the users have often already turned down the central unit out of frustration to avoid flow noise. Result: the system’s effect is zero. It is a Paul Focus 200, with 200 cubic meters per hour and suitable for up to 150 square meters (1600 square feet) with an apartment size of 122 square meters (1310 square feet). To me, that does not seem entirely wrong.
However, this has nothing to do with the air feeling stale or stuffy in the morning when the window is closed. It simply feels different when air blows in through the window compared to a subtle, constant air exchange happening through the ventilation system.
After living in the house for some time, I will be able to say whether our Zehnder 450 makes a noticeable difference.
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