ᐅ Underfloor heating in the children's room? Some rooms planned without underfloor heating? Removing the air-to-water heat pump?
Created on: 18 Dec 2019 21:20
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ludwig88sta
Hello everyone,
I'll briefly introduce the topic:
We are planning a two-story single-family house of about 180 sqm (1,940 sq ft) with a basement, built with Poroton 42cm (16.5 inches) bricks and as much photovoltaic system as possible on the roof. Since we want to insulate well not only with the bricks but also with the windows, the base slab, the basement, etc., we are considering an air-to-water heat pump (following the motto "a well-insulated house doesn’t need a huge heating system").
Now we are wondering whether we should install underfloor heating in the bedroom or children’s rooms at all, because it is said to be slow to react and can cause uncomfortable temperatures in summer, which again leads to poor sleep. Also, different temperatures are needed in sleeping areas than in living areas. Of course, children’s rooms are tricky since they are used for both activities in the afternoon and for sleeping at night.
We want to install underfloor heating in the kitchen/dining area, living room, and of course the bathroom. Can you plan for two different supply temperatures for the underfloor heating (one warmer for kitchen/dining, living room, bathroom, study and one cooler for bedrooms and kids’ rooms)? What about rooms like the hobby room or guest room? My wife often makes wreaths or works on crafts in the hobby room, so it definitely does not need to be as warm as the living room. The guest room we would not want to heat throughout the entire heating season, but only when guests are actually staying.
However, I read that underfloor heating works best when water is circulated continuously? What is recommended for guest rooms or hobby rooms? The quickest way to heat them would probably be with conventional radiators rather than underfloor heating? But what I have read so far suggests that air-to-water heat pumps may not be ideal for that. Should we consider a gas boiler instead (connection available on the property)? Or is it possible to operate underfloor heating with an air-to-water heat pump with different supply temperature circuits (1) living areas 2) sleeping areas 3) rooms heated only as needed)?
This sentence made me doubt:
I understand this to mean that the whole house should be heated with one supply temperature, ideally all through underfloor heating. Of course, with multiple circuits since each circuit should not exceed 80/100 meters (260/330 feet) in length (pressure loss, etc.). But all with the same supply temperature, otherwise that would be individual room control again, which should not be installed.
I hope you can shed some light on this.
Underfloor heating is very important to my wife, so we won’t avoid it. The question is what we do with the hobby room, which needs much less heating (or also the bedrooms and kids’ rooms?), and the guest room, which is heated much less often. Is that even possible with underfloor heating and an air-to-water heat pump?
Have a great evening and enjoy the upcoming pre-Christmas season.
I’m really impressed by the many helpful people here who support future homeowners like me, who don’t just go to a general contractor and say “Do it and give me the keys sometime, I don’t care about the details,” but who want to dive into all the different trades involved. At the same time, it can be overwhelming and confusing due to the huge amount of information available online, especially with little prior experience.
I'll briefly introduce the topic:
We are planning a two-story single-family house of about 180 sqm (1,940 sq ft) with a basement, built with Poroton 42cm (16.5 inches) bricks and as much photovoltaic system as possible on the roof. Since we want to insulate well not only with the bricks but also with the windows, the base slab, the basement, etc., we are considering an air-to-water heat pump (following the motto "a well-insulated house doesn’t need a huge heating system").
Now we are wondering whether we should install underfloor heating in the bedroom or children’s rooms at all, because it is said to be slow to react and can cause uncomfortable temperatures in summer, which again leads to poor sleep. Also, different temperatures are needed in sleeping areas than in living areas. Of course, children’s rooms are tricky since they are used for both activities in the afternoon and for sleeping at night.
We want to install underfloor heating in the kitchen/dining area, living room, and of course the bathroom. Can you plan for two different supply temperatures for the underfloor heating (one warmer for kitchen/dining, living room, bathroom, study and one cooler for bedrooms and kids’ rooms)? What about rooms like the hobby room or guest room? My wife often makes wreaths or works on crafts in the hobby room, so it definitely does not need to be as warm as the living room. The guest room we would not want to heat throughout the entire heating season, but only when guests are actually staying.
However, I read that underfloor heating works best when water is circulated continuously? What is recommended for guest rooms or hobby rooms? The quickest way to heat them would probably be with conventional radiators rather than underfloor heating? But what I have read so far suggests that air-to-water heat pumps may not be ideal for that. Should we consider a gas boiler instead (connection available on the property)? Or is it possible to operate underfloor heating with an air-to-water heat pump with different supply temperature circuits (1) living areas 2) sleeping areas 3) rooms heated only as needed)?
This sentence made me doubt:
"To ensure optimal operation of the heat pump, underfloor heating should not have individual room control installed."(Source: Bundesverband Flächenheizung e.V.)
I understand this to mean that the whole house should be heated with one supply temperature, ideally all through underfloor heating. Of course, with multiple circuits since each circuit should not exceed 80/100 meters (260/330 feet) in length (pressure loss, etc.). But all with the same supply temperature, otherwise that would be individual room control again, which should not be installed.
I hope you can shed some light on this.
Underfloor heating is very important to my wife, so we won’t avoid it. The question is what we do with the hobby room, which needs much less heating (or also the bedrooms and kids’ rooms?), and the guest room, which is heated much less often. Is that even possible with underfloor heating and an air-to-water heat pump?
Have a great evening and enjoy the upcoming pre-Christmas season.
I’m really impressed by the many helpful people here who support future homeowners like me, who don’t just go to a general contractor and say “Do it and give me the keys sometime, I don’t care about the details,” but who want to dive into all the different trades involved. At the same time, it can be overwhelming and confusing due to the huge amount of information available online, especially with little prior experience.
ludwig88sta schrieb:
No one wants the living area temperature in the bedroom as well The valves in the heating circuit distributor are first roughly adjusted manually based on the heating load calculation and later fine-tuned during the on-site test. After that, the heating system in the house is controlled only by the outdoor temperature sensor. This is sufficient for modern houses. Search for "hydraulic balancing." It has been discussed many times in this forum over the past few days.
boxandroof schrieb:
Have an underfloor heating system designed based on a room-specific heating load calculation to achieve the lowest possible supply temperature. Keep all circuits around 80 meters (260 feet), maximum 100 meters (330 feet). Additionally, for air-to-water heat pumps, a maximum pipe spacing of 10 cm (4 inches).
B
boxandroof18 Dec 2019 21:59It depends on the room and is calculated accordingly. We have values between 7.5 and 15. The circuit lengths should also be consistent, as larger distances can sometimes be reasonable in rooms with low heating demand.
ludwig88sta schrieb:
Alright, then I’ll install underfloor heating everywhere, but how do I control different temperatures? Nobody wants the living room temperature in the bedroom as well, right? In principle, you can control them separately and have different temperatures in each room.
Many people don’t want to believe that here.
ludwig88sta schrieb:
Is it possible to have different supply temperature circuits with an air-to-water heat pump? This is managed through the underfloor heating valves and the room thermostats.
Basically, it’s not advisable to leave rooms unheated. That will cause building issues sooner or later.
Still, secondary rooms are often kept at around 18°C (64°F), living areas at about 21°C (70°F). Doors should then be kept closed.
And yes: if you suddenly try to adjust things on the fly, it might get uncomfortably cold. In that case, you can use an electric radiator or temporarily run infrared heaters powered by electricity.
But you should have enough time to get used to handling and adjusting this before it becomes an issue.
ludwig88sta schrieb:
The same applies to the bedrooms. I can't sleep well at temperatures above 18/19°C (64/66°F) in the bedroom. How is it supposed to work if I go from the living room, where hopefully it’s a bit warmer than 20°C (68°F), upstairs to the bedroom, which with the same underfloor heating won’t also be 21-22°C (70-72°F)?Of course, you can sleep at 20°C (68°F) as well... I didn’t believe that myself before, I was also in the "the window has to be open even at 5°C (41°F), otherwise I’ll suffocate" group. But everyone can get used to that, thanks to climate change. Otherwise, you might have to move to Iceland or somewhere similar.
Of course, the bedroom can be kept a bit cooler with underfloor heating than the living room, as long as the door stays closed.
Still, it’s just warm everywhere in summer. Last summer, we often had 24°C (75°F) inside despite keeping everything closed during the day, ventilation off, and everything open at night whenever it cooled down. Unfortunately, there were nights when it was barely cooler outside than inside—and you can still manage to sleep then.
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ludwig88sta19 Dec 2019 09:09This brings us back to the topic. Some people can sleep with some light, while others prefer complete darkness. Some need 15°C (59°F) to sleep comfortably, and others—like you—can sleep well even at 20°C (68°F). However, I want to bring science and medicine into the discussion here, which, as far as I know, recommend a bedroom temperature below 20°C (68°F) as significantly better. But to each their own.
Since you mentioned ventilation, you have a ventilation system, right? Can it also provide cooling during summer if the temperature in room XY rises above XX °C (XX °F)? Of course, that depends on the heating system. With an air-to-water heat pump, cooling requires electricity. But with a ground loop collector brine heat pump, summer cooling should be easier (since the ground temperature is significantly lower than the 30°C (86°F) daytime air temperature), right?
The ground loop collector on a property of about 1000 sqm (about 10,760 sq ft) seems interesting for a DIY project, especially with the generous subsidy of at least 4k.
Since you mentioned ventilation, you have a ventilation system, right? Can it also provide cooling during summer if the temperature in room XY rises above XX °C (XX °F)? Of course, that depends on the heating system. With an air-to-water heat pump, cooling requires electricity. But with a ground loop collector brine heat pump, summer cooling should be easier (since the ground temperature is significantly lower than the 30°C (86°F) daytime air temperature), right?
The ground loop collector on a property of about 1000 sqm (about 10,760 sq ft) seems interesting for a DIY project, especially with the generous subsidy of at least 4k.
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