ᐅ Construction Project – Ventilation System, Heating – Your Experiences?
Created on: 16 Dec 2019 19:17
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Hello everyone,
After researching prefab houses in this forum over two years ago and coming across several posts that introduced me to the option of a solid (masonry) house, we have now decided to build such a solid house. We purchased the corresponding plot in Rhineland-Palatinate this month. We have successfully completed the first meeting with the architect (who was recommended to us by several friends). The meeting was very pleasant, and we were able to present our ideas. The next step is for him to create an initial design, which we will then review to see if it meets our preferences and to discuss any changes we want.
Since I have spent a lot of time in the last two years reading forums and many construction websites, I have come across many opinions and have already asked the architect for his thoughts on some issues. I want to pose these questions to you as well to get some additional feedback specific to my case. By the way, the building project will be a one-and-a-half-story single-family house with a pitched roof and 145-150 sqm (1560-1615 sq ft) of living space, without a basement.
1. We would like to have a central ventilation system. He advises against it due to the high costs (apparently around 18,000 - 20,000) and recommends the traditional use of windows. Is this cost range of 18,000 - 20,000 realistic? I had read something about around 12,000.
2. Regarding the heating system... we would like 3-4 sqm (32-43 sq ft) of solar thermal collectors for domestic hot water. Personally, I would probably have chosen a gas condensing boiler for the underfloor heating. He recommends an air-source heat pump. I have read that these can consume a lot of electricity, plus I wouldn’t be thrilled about even a slight humming noise outside. I’m probably not too satisfied with the gas condensing boiler either. The ground here is heavily rocky (slate mountain range). He considers any drilling into the ground risky due to possible rapidly increasing costs. He also doesn’t favor horizontal ground loop collectors, because they might cause problems with plant roots. Somehow it feels like everything has its downsides. What heating types do you have? What were the costs, and how satisfied are you? How are the running costs?
3. We love the clinker brick look. We would like to cover the entire façade with genuine clinker bricks. He advised us to preferably involve companies from North Rhine-Westphalia or Northern Germany, where it is common and they have expertise. I agree with that. What is the current cost per sqm for clinker bricks? Has anyone recently had this done? How long did it take? Clinker slips (thin facing bricks) are not an option for us.
4. If possible, we want to aim for KfW 55 standard (energy-efficient building standard). With the ventilation system and solar thermal, I think we are pretty well set in that direction. Then there is of course the question of the building material. He recommends monolithic Poroton blocks. But one could also use presumably cheaper pumice blocks if it really is a clinker brick masonry. Would pumice plus clinker be sufficient for KfW 55? External thermal insulation composite systems (ETICS, known as WDVS in German) are not planned. What is the price difference between Poroton and pumice?
If you have any questions, I will gladly try to answer them.
Thanks in advance, and please don’t be too harsh on me.
After researching prefab houses in this forum over two years ago and coming across several posts that introduced me to the option of a solid (masonry) house, we have now decided to build such a solid house. We purchased the corresponding plot in Rhineland-Palatinate this month. We have successfully completed the first meeting with the architect (who was recommended to us by several friends). The meeting was very pleasant, and we were able to present our ideas. The next step is for him to create an initial design, which we will then review to see if it meets our preferences and to discuss any changes we want.
Since I have spent a lot of time in the last two years reading forums and many construction websites, I have come across many opinions and have already asked the architect for his thoughts on some issues. I want to pose these questions to you as well to get some additional feedback specific to my case. By the way, the building project will be a one-and-a-half-story single-family house with a pitched roof and 145-150 sqm (1560-1615 sq ft) of living space, without a basement.
1. We would like to have a central ventilation system. He advises against it due to the high costs (apparently around 18,000 - 20,000) and recommends the traditional use of windows. Is this cost range of 18,000 - 20,000 realistic? I had read something about around 12,000.
2. Regarding the heating system... we would like 3-4 sqm (32-43 sq ft) of solar thermal collectors for domestic hot water. Personally, I would probably have chosen a gas condensing boiler for the underfloor heating. He recommends an air-source heat pump. I have read that these can consume a lot of electricity, plus I wouldn’t be thrilled about even a slight humming noise outside. I’m probably not too satisfied with the gas condensing boiler either. The ground here is heavily rocky (slate mountain range). He considers any drilling into the ground risky due to possible rapidly increasing costs. He also doesn’t favor horizontal ground loop collectors, because they might cause problems with plant roots. Somehow it feels like everything has its downsides. What heating types do you have? What were the costs, and how satisfied are you? How are the running costs?
3. We love the clinker brick look. We would like to cover the entire façade with genuine clinker bricks. He advised us to preferably involve companies from North Rhine-Westphalia or Northern Germany, where it is common and they have expertise. I agree with that. What is the current cost per sqm for clinker bricks? Has anyone recently had this done? How long did it take? Clinker slips (thin facing bricks) are not an option for us.
4. If possible, we want to aim for KfW 55 standard (energy-efficient building standard). With the ventilation system and solar thermal, I think we are pretty well set in that direction. Then there is of course the question of the building material. He recommends monolithic Poroton blocks. But one could also use presumably cheaper pumice blocks if it really is a clinker brick masonry. Would pumice plus clinker be sufficient for KfW 55? External thermal insulation composite systems (ETICS, known as WDVS in German) are not planned. What is the price difference between Poroton and pumice?
If you have any questions, I will gladly try to answer them.
Thanks in advance, and please don’t be too harsh on me.
H
hampshire18 Dec 2019 08:46Homeowners often quickly become enthusiastic about a particular technology. I definitely count myself among them. This can lead to decisions that are not cost-optimized. In hindsight, almost everyone who has not made a complete disaster will recommend and defend their chosen system.
Take a step back and make a list of what is important to you in a heating system (space requirements, type of heat, dust generation, allergy considerations, energy source procurement, control system, noise levels, installation cost, operating costs, maintenance needs, environmental impact, appearance, prestige, or anything else).
Discuss this list with professionals and also with your architect. The architect does not need to be an expert in the chosen technology; what matters is the selection of the contractor carrying out the work and the communication between this contractor and the architect.
I can tell you how great I think my heating system is (which it really is), but that won’t help you move forward.
Ask your architect how they arrived at the €18,000 for the heat pump. You can only compare prices once you know what is included. It’s possible they are accounting for a larger space requirement in square meters for the heating technology from their perspective, which wouldn’t be wrong if you calculate TCO (total cost of ownership). Just 3m² (32ft²) more and that could easily explain a €6,000 difference.
Take a step back and make a list of what is important to you in a heating system (space requirements, type of heat, dust generation, allergy considerations, energy source procurement, control system, noise levels, installation cost, operating costs, maintenance needs, environmental impact, appearance, prestige, or anything else).
Discuss this list with professionals and also with your architect. The architect does not need to be an expert in the chosen technology; what matters is the selection of the contractor carrying out the work and the communication between this contractor and the architect.
I can tell you how great I think my heating system is (which it really is), but that won’t help you move forward.
Ask your architect how they arrived at the €18,000 for the heat pump. You can only compare prices once you know what is included. It’s possible they are accounting for a larger space requirement in square meters for the heating technology from their perspective, which wouldn’t be wrong if you calculate TCO (total cost of ownership). Just 3m² (32ft²) more and that could easily explain a €6,000 difference.
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ludwig88sta18 Dec 2019 10:41hampshire schrieb:
Ask your architect how he arrives at the 18,000 for the heat pump. You can only compare prices once you know what is included. It could be that, for example, he allocates a larger space requirement in square meters for the heating system from his perspective, which wouldn’t be wrong if you calculate total cost of ownership (TCO). 3 sqm (32 sq ft) more and you easily have a 6,000 € difference.You are absolutely right. Every homebuyer tends to defend their approach and configuration—unless they are completely disappointed—which is human nature.
Yes, you have to be able to trust the architect. After all, it can happen with any architect that his friend sells heat pump model XY, and then he gladly promotes that same heat pump XY and defends it first and foremost in his projects.
Wickie schrieb:
Heating professionals are familiar with gas because it is a well-established technology used for decades. On one hand, there is the factor of what the installer learned during their apprenticeship or technical school and what experience has become second nature since then. On the other hand, it should not be forgotten that there are often long-standing relationships with Manufacturer A, who has consistently been among the top three with Technology X (or at least reliably in the top three for many years). Then Technology Y comes along (where Manufacturer A is not among the top three), and one faces two challenges: 1. Building a relationship with a "new" manufacturer (purchase conditions, training for certifications, personal contacts with representatives), and 2. Worsening the terms with Manufacturer A when purchasing units elsewhere. This often leads to the attitude that the new technology hasn’t yet proven itself.
ludwig88sta schrieb:
After all, it can happen with any architect that their friend sells heat pump model XY. The culture of live and let live—that is, ensuring that both clients and craftsmen are happy and satisfied—is, in my opinion, one of the most important aspects of being an architect. My “clients” – I personally work in an “architectural role” (although not in house construction) – greatly appreciate this. No buyer of investment goods truly enjoys seeing a supplier go out of business just to get the “best” price. You also want to be able to look customer service representatives in the eye. However, this should not be interpreted as offering a supplier “protection from competition” if they are out of touch and have missed the train.
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ludwig88sta18 Dec 2019 17:48boxandroof schrieb:
Heat pump without buffer tank.Do you mean that the heat pump itself should not include a buffer tank, and that one should be purchased separately depending on the domestic hot water demand?
Which buffer tank do you use with your Geisha? Are there even any poor-quality manufacturers?
**Edit: Am I seeing this correctly, or did I miss something: the already very affordable Geisha can even be subsidized with 1,300 EUR by BAFA when building a new single-family home?
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boxandroof18 Dec 2019 20:52No, the heat pump should be connected directly to the underfloor heating for heating, without a buffer tank before or after. The screed acts as the thermal store.
You will definitely need a hot water storage tank. The Geisha does not have one integrated, so you can add a suitable one. It should have at least 2m2 (21.5 sq ft) of heat exchanger surface area, preferably more. Our heating installer recommended the Juratherm hdw 200, and I didn’t want to supply any separate materials myself. Many use storage tanks from SHWT, which are more affordable but with slightly lower performance.
Before you commit to the Panasonic, check if a trench ground collector is an option. The subsidy is more certain there, but it requires more self-installation effort. With an air-to-water heat pump, obtaining subsidies is very difficult because you have to prove a seasonal performance factor of 4.5 on paper. I didn’t look into this further since the heat pump was not yet listed by the funding agency at that time. If your region experiences cold temperatures, it probably won’t work.
There is a website and a club related to the Geisha where almost all information is available. Otherwise, why not start your own heating system thread?
You will definitely need a hot water storage tank. The Geisha does not have one integrated, so you can add a suitable one. It should have at least 2m2 (21.5 sq ft) of heat exchanger surface area, preferably more. Our heating installer recommended the Juratherm hdw 200, and I didn’t want to supply any separate materials myself. Many use storage tanks from SHWT, which are more affordable but with slightly lower performance.
Before you commit to the Panasonic, check if a trench ground collector is an option. The subsidy is more certain there, but it requires more self-installation effort. With an air-to-water heat pump, obtaining subsidies is very difficult because you have to prove a seasonal performance factor of 4.5 on paper. I didn’t look into this further since the heat pump was not yet listed by the funding agency at that time. If your region experiences cold temperatures, it probably won’t work.
There is a website and a club related to the Geisha where almost all information is available. Otherwise, why not start your own heating system thread?
L
ludwig88sta18 Dec 2019 21:28I just started a new thread in the heating forum about underfloor heating and air-to-water heat pumps in general.
I had already found the club page aquarea smallsolutions, thanks.
I find the trench collector problematic because it extracts heat needed by plants and trees (especially their roots). That would mean I need to know now where I definitely don’t want to plant anything. Or is it just fake news that plants above or near the trench collector suffer from it?
I had already found the club page aquarea smallsolutions, thanks.
I find the trench collector problematic because it extracts heat needed by plants and trees (especially their roots). That would mean I need to know now where I definitely don’t want to plant anything. Or is it just fake news that plants above or near the trench collector suffer from it?
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