ᐅ Single-family house (2 floors + finished basement + converted attic), approximately 200 sqm – modifications
Created on: 20 Oct 2019 21:50
G
grericht
Hello,
We are currently working with an architect on the design of our single-family home. Since we have three children, the house should accommodate several future scenarios. These include:
Plot:
Since the plot already has a building, and we want to keep the rear building (it is fully shaded by the apartment building, is in reasonable condition, and might provide future expansion potential—at least suitable for workshops and storage), and since the plot is not very large, we decided on a tall house with a small footprint.
About the house
We have already developed a fairly comfortable floor plan with our chosen architect. Our biggest concern is accidentally planning a wall or something else 5 cm (2 inches) too far to the left or right and then being unable to fit our furniture. I would appreciate it if you would be interested in looking over the current design and giving feedback.
We are currently working with an architect on the design of our single-family home. Since we have three children, the house should accommodate several future scenarios. These include:
- Enough space for everyone
- At some point, the children will move out, and we will downsize to the living basement while renting out the rest
- One or two children might continue living with us (multi-generational living) – possibly in the basement with a separate entrance
- Possibly one child even starts a family in the house, and we move to the basement
Plot:
- 710 sqm (8,000 sq ft) close to the city center
- To the south is our rear building (two stories) attached to a 3.5-story apartment building (boundary development)
- To the north and west are the streets (a corner plot)
- Behind to the west is a large green plot with a single-family house
- To the north beyond the street are apartment buildings
- To the east there is a narrow parking lot followed by a green recreational garden area
- We have to keep a 6 m (20 ft) setback to the streets and the usual 3 m (10 ft) to the parking lot
Since the plot already has a building, and we want to keep the rear building (it is fully shaded by the apartment building, is in reasonable condition, and might provide future expansion potential—at least suitable for workshops and storage), and since the plot is not very large, we decided on a tall house with a small footprint.
About the house
- Eder XP9 or 10 (timber frame) in 42.5 or 49 cm (17 or 19 inches) thickness
- Living basement (150 cm (5 ft) below ground / 100 cm (3 ft) above ground) – if affordable (this allows for the utility room in the basement and more space on the ground floor for a large open-plan living/dining/kitchen area as the main living space)
- Knee wall either 150 cm (5 ft) or, if not much more expensive, a dormer wall above the full upper floor (both options allow the roof space to be used for two rooms; with the dormer, these rooms are very large and could even accommodate an attic instead of bunk beds)
- 50-degree roof pitch (for solar energy efficiency in winter)
- The basement should be designed to eventually allow for a small separate living unit
- Both bathrooms should have a standing toilet or urinal
- We definitely want a windbreak/entry vestibule
- The terrace should be raised with fill
- Underfloor heating with geothermal energy
- Solar energy planned for the future
We have already developed a fairly comfortable floor plan with our chosen architect. Our biggest concern is accidentally planning a wall or something else 5 cm (2 inches) too far to the left or right and then being unable to fit our furniture. I would appreciate it if you would be interested in looking over the current design and giving feedback.
grericht schrieb:
There I read: with knee wall construction, the roof rests on the floor level, and with a dwarf wall, it rests on the wall. If you want to use your own definitions, go ahead. I prefer to stick to the standard industry terms. That helps avoid misunderstandings. I won’t explain it again, and the sketches from your (unauthorized) link are clear enough.
grericht schrieb:
I don’t understand why the original post (I suspect the comment from kaho674 set the tone) turned into a financial discussion. That’s because price and floor plan are closely linked when it’s predictable that the plans are unrealistic.
grericht schrieb:
That makes about 330k assumed costs roughly 1.7k per sqm (square meter), with about one-third of that being the cheaper basement... So it’s not really that far off, I think. *laughs* I disagree. Since the usual price per sqm is between 2000 and 2200, that’s quite a significant difference.
Unfortunately, offers rarely correspond to the final amount you actually pay. If you believe you are the big exception, that’s fine. We don’t want to discourage you; rather, we want to support you to avoid things going wrong.
Now regarding the offer we received yesterday.
Included in the offer:
For approximately 335k including VAT
Not included:
That adds approximately 98-113k more (lime vs. clay plaster) plus possible additional costs for soil removal (which seems underestimated to us)
= approximately 435-450k INCLUDING additional construction costs
The height increase of the roof to a knee wall design was estimated at 4k. That seems low to us, but it will still be calculated.
So, with the height increase, we would pay about 450k for 205-210sqm (2205-2260 sq ft) including extra construction costs. That comes to about 2.17k Euros (per square meter).
Now I would appreciate feedback on poor budgeting (although that probably belongs in the financing section, and I would have posted it there by now), and especially on the floor plan.
- It concerns the house shown in the 2nd post, plus the basement and ground floor from the first post. We have already made minor adjustments (outward-opening exterior door) that are not included in the offer but are nearly cost-neutral (some even cheaper - for example, only one sliding glass door in the ground floor center and two fixed glass panels on the left and right instead of two glass doors).
- So, we're talking about the house with a 150cm (59 inches) knee wall and about 165sqm (1776 sq ft) of living space over 2m (6.5 ft) in the basement, ground floor, and upper floor, plus approximately 24sqm (258 sq ft) over 2m (6.5 ft), and 14sqm (151 sq ft)/2 = 7sqm (75 sq ft) between 1-2m (3.3-6.5 ft) in the attic. So roughly 195sqm (2098 sq ft) of living space.
- We specified that the basement would have a ceiling height of 2.50m (8.2 ft) and the ground floor 2.75m (9 ft) in masonry. The offer states the basement at 2.25m (7.4 ft) and the ground floor at 2.50m (8.2 ft) – I will clarify this on Monday.
Included in the offer:
- Wooden staircase (we have since changed our minds on this)
- 20k for earthworks
- Concrete platform for house entrance and basement access
- Triple-glazed windows; 82mm (3.2 inches) profiles; 6/7-chamber window profiles
- 2 sliding doors in the living area (one will be removed)
- Front door 2k, side door 1.1k including installation
- Interior window sills made of Werzalit or agglomerated marble; exterior window sills aluminum, and floor-to-ceiling windows on the ground floor with Rosa Beta or Zerizzo granite
- Interior doors made from hollow core doors with CPL (Continuous Pressure Laminate) coating
- Underfloor heating in the upper and ground floors with individual room control (underfloor heating in the basement was also agreed upon – I will check Monday if it is only missing from the description)
- Preparation for heating installation in the attic
- Dimplex SIK 11TES heat pump with 200m (656 ft) probe
- External 400-liter (106 gallons) hot water storage tank by Dimplex
- External cement lightweight render with mesh reinforcement, mineral exterior plaster with leveling coat in white or pastel colors
- Sanitary rough-ins in 2 bathrooms and 1 WC + frost-proof outdoor faucet and 1 outdoor wash basin in the utility room
- Sanitary ceramics 14k
- Electrical work 19k
For approximately 335k including VAT
Not included:
- Soil report (already available)
- Utility connections (we are budgeting 20k)
- No interior plastering work is included in the offer because no clay plaster specialist could be found – we therefore estimate about 20-25k for lime plaster and 30-35k for clay plaster if we find a craftsman
- Soil removal (budgeting 5-xxk)
- Surveyor (budgeting 2.5k)
- Sewage/lift system for wastewater and rainwater (budgeting 10k)
- All interior flooring and paint (budgeting 15k)
- Exterior landscaping and driveway (budgeting 15k)
- Roof insulation (currently basically a cold roof; we will insulate it ourselves – budgeting 5k)
- Chimney
- Roller shutters
- Multi-utility connection (budgeting 1k)
- Heating in the attic (either 2 radiators or underfloor heating as own work) (budgeting 5k)
That adds approximately 98-113k more (lime vs. clay plaster) plus possible additional costs for soil removal (which seems underestimated to us)
= approximately 435-450k INCLUDING additional construction costs
The height increase of the roof to a knee wall design was estimated at 4k. That seems low to us, but it will still be calculated.
So, with the height increase, we would pay about 450k for 205-210sqm (2205-2260 sq ft) including extra construction costs. That comes to about 2.17k Euros (per square meter).
Now I would appreciate feedback on poor budgeting (although that probably belongs in the financing section, and I would have posted it there by now), and especially on the floor plan.
kaho674 schrieb:
If you want to use your own definitions, go ahead. I prefer to stick with the industry standards to avoid misunderstandings. I won’t explain it again, and the sketches from your (not permitted) link are clear enough.
This is because price and floor plan are closely related when it’s foreseeable that these are unrealistic plans.
*laugh* But I do think so. Since the price per square meter usually ranges from 2000 to 2200, this is quite a significant deviation. Unfortunately, the final offers are never the amount you actually pay. If you believe you are the big exception, okay. We’re not trying to discourage you, but to support you so it doesn’t go wrong. I still don’t understand your definition of the knee wall and it contradicts the one on the (apparently forbidden) linked page. Knee wall = roof on a wall whose height is specified; Drempel = roof on a story. If your problem is that we describe the attic as the upper floor because we find it clearer to only call a roof space an attic when it has considerable roof slopes, then I apologize. Otherwise, I find my description understandable and not incorrect.
Yes, floor plan and price are closely related. We first looked for a usable floor plan and then optimized it in every possible way to avoid losing space to corridors. This may be unusual nowadays, but we don’t want to “lose” living area inside the house or invest money in spacious corridors. We want to keep as much of the plot as possible and have plenty of living and functional space inside.
Yesterday, I experienced how a corridor of 2 m x 1 m (6.5 ft x 3.3 ft) in front of a double L-shaped staircase looks and feels. For us, that’s perfectly fine. Even a walkway width of 90 cm (35 inches) didn’t feel bad at all. Large oak furniture will only be placed on the ground floor. Upstairs and above — we have Ivar shelving and self-built solutions.
But all this deviates somewhat from the usual price of 2200 USD per square meter! People usually build corridors and don’t use the attic and the comparatively affordable basement as we do. As mentioned, we ended up at 2170 USD per square meter including ancillary construction costs. Others surely build for 2200 USD excluding ancillary costs. That may be true. They then give up the “challenge” of living in the basement and attic and only have 2 m x 1 m (6.5 ft x 3.3 ft) corridors and 90 cm (35 inches) wide stair runs.
If we have misestimated any costs, please let us know.
I don’t think this is that important, and you probably mean the same thing anyway. It’s just that your terms are confusing.
Correct.
That doesn’t really exist, or at least no one says it. A roof is not on a floor level. As far as I know, the roof rests on the top plate, whether with a knee wall or not. In my opinion, the “Drempel” (knee wall) only serves to cover up sharp and unusable angles on the floor below the slope, since you can’t really use that space anyway (hard to reach, head bumps, can’t clean properly, etc.). The flatter the roof, the more likely this area is boxed in if no knee wall is installed.
No. A full floor is a full floor, whether it’s the first, fifth, or tenth story. It is defined by having (which varies by state) at least two-thirds of the floor area with a ceiling height over 2.30m (7.5 feet). The attic is simply the floor directly under the roof.
Your fear of corridors seems almost neurotic. A good floor plan isn’t defined by minimizing corridor area. What matters is that the usable spaces are optimized for their intended purpose. For example, a staircase opening into a chill room ruins that space, because it becomes a thoroughfare for everyone going up and down (and they have to), which spoils the relaxing atmosphere. Just as an example.
“Fine” and “not bad” aren’t exactly adjectives you’d use to describe your dream home, are they?
As for costs – there are experts who can give you better advice on that. It only makes sense once you have the detailed scope of work. So far, the general contractor has planned your basement as unfinished. If you think that’s just a misunderstanding, you’re mistaken. They clearly know that it won’t be sufficient as it is.
grericht schrieb:
Kniestock = roof on a wall of which the height is specified;
Correct.
grericht schrieb:
Drempel = roof on a floor level.
That doesn’t really exist, or at least no one says it. A roof is not on a floor level. As far as I know, the roof rests on the top plate, whether with a knee wall or not. In my opinion, the “Drempel” (knee wall) only serves to cover up sharp and unusable angles on the floor below the slope, since you can’t really use that space anyway (hard to reach, head bumps, can’t clean properly, etc.). The flatter the roof, the more likely this area is boxed in if no knee wall is installed.
grericht schrieb:
If your issue is that in our region the attic is described as the upper floor because we find it clearer to call it an attic only when it has significant sloped ceilings, then I apologize. Otherwise, I find my description understandable and not incorrect.
No. A full floor is a full floor, whether it’s the first, fifth, or tenth story. It is defined by having (which varies by state) at least two-thirds of the floor area with a ceiling height over 2.30m (7.5 feet). The attic is simply the floor directly under the roof.
grericht schrieb:
Yes, floor plan and price are closely linked. We first searched for a workable floor plan and then optimized it as much as possible to avoid losing space to corridors. That may be unusual nowadays, but we don’t want to lose any footprint inside the house or invest money in having nice hallways. We want to keep as much of the plot as possible and have a lot of living and usable space inside.
Your fear of corridors seems almost neurotic. A good floor plan isn’t defined by minimizing corridor area. What matters is that the usable spaces are optimized for their intended purpose. For example, a staircase opening into a chill room ruins that space, because it becomes a thoroughfare for everyone going up and down (and they have to), which spoils the relaxing atmosphere. Just as an example.
grericht schrieb:
Yesterday I was able to see how a corridor measuring 2 by 1 meter (6.5 by 3.3 feet) in front of a double half-turn staircase looks and feels. For us, that is completely fine. Even a walking width of 90cm (35 inches) didn’t feel bad at all.
“Fine” and “not bad” aren’t exactly adjectives you’d use to describe your dream home, are they?
As for costs – there are experts who can give you better advice on that. It only makes sense once you have the detailed scope of work. So far, the general contractor has planned your basement as unfinished. If you think that’s just a misunderstanding, you’re mistaken. They clearly know that it won’t be sufficient as it is.
grericht schrieb:
I don’t understand why this thread has turned into a financial discussion (I guess the comment by kaho674 set the tone). If I had wanted to discuss finances, I would have gone to the finance section. There are simply many different ways to describe things here. It’s just frustrating when later there are dozens of pages full of tips and then you realize it’s not affordable. That’s why at least a brief mention of the financial aspect is helpful. Apparently, not every single euro needs to be monitored, and the breakdown is well calculated.
grericht schrieb:
- We specified that the basement walls would be built to 2.50m (8.2 ft) and the ground floor walls to 2.75m (9 ft). But the offer states basement 2.25m (7.4 ft) and ground floor 2.50m (8.2 ft) – I will clarify this on Monday.
Be sure to pay close attention to the exact wording. The 2.50m (8.2 ft) dimension – what exactly does it refer to? Is it from the finished floor level to the ceiling? Saying “2.50m (8.2 ft) masonry height” might mean there’s still ceiling and floor buildup on top, so the final clear height could be closer to 2m (6.6 ft).
grericht schrieb:
Included in the offer:
- A wooden staircase (we have since changed our minds on this)
- Sanitary ceramics for 14,000 (currency unspecified)
- Electrical work for 19,000 (currency unspecified)
Is that the price for the staircase? Probably a standard beech wood one, which may not suit everyone. If the treads are to be brushed and possibly oiled, that can add another 2,000–3,000. The sanitary ceramics and electrical work appear to be basic standard packages and will likely require additional expenses as well.
grericht schrieb:
Not included:
- Soil report (already available)
- Utility connections (we are budgeting 20,000)
- Soil removal (budgeting between 5,000 and 20,000)
- All floor coverings and interior painting (budgeting 15,000)
- Outdoor area + driveway (budgeting 15,000)
Utility connections should be less costly. Soil removal is always uncertain… Be careful that the earthworks contractor doesn’t charge you for questionable items later. “Painting”? Does that mean the painter’s work? If yes, then 15,000 is likely underestimated. If a professional company is hired, expect more like 20,000 plus approximately 10,000 for flooring. The tiler is somehow missing here. Outdoors budget of 15,000 is also quite tight. In some regions, it is feasible.
grericht schrieb:
= approximately 435,000–450,000 including incidental building costs
We would therefore pay around 450,000 for 205–210 sqm (2,204–2,260 sq ft) including incidental building costs if costs increase. That is about 2,170 per sqm (201 per sq ft). Achievable but tight. I would still keep a reserve in the low five-figure range here.
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